Monday 14 April, 2025
The Great Debate – Albanese and Dutton
face off
In a must-watch moment of the 2025
Federal Election campaign, Prime Minister Anthony
Albanese and Opposition Leader Peter Dutton will go
head-to-head in The Great Debate, live and
exclusive on Channel 9, 9Now and Stan at 7.30pm AEST on
Tuesday, April 22.
Moderated by Ally Langdon, host of A Current Affair, this one-hour televised debate will tackle the defining issues facing Australians – from the spiralling cost of living and worsening housing affordability, to the strain on healthcare, national security and the challenges posed by global economic uncertainty following tariff hikes by the US Government.
Joining Ally to put the tough questions to the leaders will be a panel of seasoned political journalists from Australia’s largest media organisation:
Charles Croucher – 9News Political Editor
Deb Knight – 2GB and Nine Radio
Phil Coorey – Australian Financial Review
At the conclusion of the debate, Nine’s expert panel will return to break down the major moments and call a winner.
Don’t miss this decisive moment in the campaign – The Great Debate, Tuesday, April 22 at 7.30pm AEST, only on Channel 9, 9Now and Stan.
For further information, please contact:
Terry Stuart
Senior Communications Manager
tstuart@nine.com.au
Moderated by Ally Langdon, host of A Current Affair, this one-hour televised debate will tackle the defining issues facing Australians – from the spiralling cost of living and worsening housing affordability, to the strain on healthcare, national security and the challenges posed by global economic uncertainty following tariff hikes by the US Government.
Joining Ally to put the tough questions to the leaders will be a panel of seasoned political journalists from Australia’s largest media organisation:
Charles Croucher – 9News Political Editor
Deb Knight – 2GB and Nine Radio
Phil Coorey – Australian Financial Review
Fiona Dear, Director of News and Current Affairs for Nine, said: “This is a critical moment in the election campaign. This debate will give voters the clearest look yet at the visions and values of each leader. Whether it’s on the couch with the family watching on Channel 9, 9Now or Stan, or listening on radio and catching the online analysis across Nine’s premier mastheads, it’s a must-watch for anyone who cares about the future direction of this country.”Debate rules have been designed to ensure a fair and engaging exchange of ideas. Some interjection will be allowed to encourage a free-flowing discussion, though the moderator will police repeated interruptions.
At the conclusion of the debate, Nine’s expert panel will return to break down the major moments and call a winner.
Don’t miss this decisive moment in the campaign – The Great Debate, Tuesday, April 22 at 7.30pm AEST, only on Channel 9, 9Now and Stan.
For further information, please contact:
Terry Stuart
Senior Communications Manager
tstuart@nine.com.au
The Questions
Channel Nine "The Great Debate–Election 2025: Australia Decides"
Sydney, NSW
Tuesday, 22 April 2025
E&OE TRANSCRIPT
[VIDEO]
ALLY
LANGDON, HOST: Good
evening. I am Ally Langdon. Welcome to the Great Debate.
Early voting is now underway and if you're still unsure,
we know plenty are, then perhaps tonight helps. A big
warm welcome to our Prime Minister Anthony Albanese and
Opposition Leader Peter Dutton. Nice to see you both.[VIDEO]
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Thanks, Ally.
PETER DUTTON, OPPOSITION LEADER: Thank you.
LANGDON: So, Australia is watching tonight on Nine, Nine Now and Stan, via the websites for the country's leading newspapers and on radio. That is a lot of eyes and ears. So, gentlemen, no pressure, we're just deciding the next leader of the nation. So, tonight the leaders will face questions from our expert panel, Nine's Political Editor, Charles Croucher. You good to go?
CHARLES CROUCHER, PANELLIST: Let's do this.
LANGDON: We've got Nine Radio’s Deb Knight. Deb? Cost of living, right?
DEB KNIGHT, PANELLIST: That's the issue. We're all feeling it.
LANGDON: And the Australian Financial Review's Phil Coorey, Political Editor, you're representing Nine Publishing. Phil, no one knows policy detail better than you and you're going to be calling them on it.
PHIL COOREY, PANELLIST: That's very kind, Ally. I'll do my best.
LANGDON: Okay, the rules. Both leaders have agreed to keep their answers to 60 seconds, which is plenty of time if you give straight answers. At home, you'll see a ten second countdown and we are going to allow interjections. We think, you know, a bit of theatre is okay, but I or the panel will jump in when needed. We don't want this to be a regurgitation of talking points. We want honest, to the point answers. And at a time when many Australians are reflecting on the sad passing of the Pope, I'd just like to say we really appreciate your time this evening.
DUTTON: Thank you.
JOURNALIST. So, we tossed a coin. Peter Dutton has won and will give his opening statement. Opposition Leader.
DUTTON: Ally, thank you very much. Prime Minister, thank you for being here tonight. I'd like to start by extending my condolences to Australians of Catholic faith and of Christian faith at the passing of the Pope. There is appropriate recognition in our country and around the world at such a significant event. At the moment, Australians, of course, are going to the polls and people have been out voting today. And this election is incredibly important. Over the course of the last three years, people have gone through the biggest drop in living standards in any other country, compared to any other country in the world. We need to make sure that we can get our country back on track, that we can help manage the economy, that we can reduce the costs in the economy, that we can provide a 25 cent a litre cut to fuel to help families now, until we can sort out the energy system mess and make sure that we can bring down the prices of food. We also have a great plan to help young home buyers get into housing. We need to make sure that we can help them achieve the dream of home ownership. And we also want to make sure that we can keep our country safe. And that's some of what I want to talk about tonight.
LANGDON: Okay, thank you so much for that, Opposition Leader. Over to you, Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, thank you, Ally, and thank you, Peter, for joining us in this debate. And I join with Australians, not just of Catholic faith, but more broadly, in expressing my sorrow at the loss of the Holy Father. Labor's plan is to build Australia's future and to build your family's future. We have immediate support through cost of living assistance, whilst making sure that we invest in the future. Tax cuts for every taxpayer, stronger Medicare, five per cent deposits for people wanting to buy their first home, 20 per cent reduction in student debt. Making sure, in addition to that, that we support better schools and fairer funding for our school system and we make more things in Australia. We can't determine what the world throws at us, but we can determine how we respond. We're going to respond the Australian way, by backing our values and trusting our people.
LANGDON: Okay, thank you so much for that, Prime Minister. So, in the history of Australian democracy, there's never been more undecided voters. The likelihood is one in three will not vote for either of you and they tell us they don't feel inspired. Prime Minister, how is that not a failure?
PRIME MINISTER: We live in times where the old rules of 40 per cent of people voting Labor, 40 per cent of people voting for the Coalition and 20 per cent being up for grabs. They've gone. That reflects the changes in our economy, the changes in our society, and we recognise that. But what we have managed to do is in very difficult global times, with the biggest inflation shock since the 1980s and the biggest energy crisis since the 1970s, is get inflation down to 2.4 per cent, make sure we deliver cost of living relief that have made a difference to families, on average of $7,200, whilst making sure that we put in place reforms that help build the future, like better schools funding, strengthening Medicare, cheaper childcare, those measures as well.
LANGDON: Okay, thank you for that, Prime Minister. I feel there was a slight dodging of the question, but it's early days, so we'll let that one slide. Mr Dutton, for so many people, Labor isn't cutting through, yet somehow you're going backwards in the polls. How do you rate your performance in this campaign?
DUTTON: Well, Ally, the Labor Party spent $20 million throwing mud and negative ads and that has an impact and I get that. But for a lot of Australian families, over the course of the next few days, they're going to have to make a decision about what's in their best interest and what's in our country's best interest. How can they get their family finances sorted out? This government's brought in a million people over the course of the last two years, which is a 70 per cent increase in the migration program of any two year period in our country's history. It's created a housing crisis. So, Australians feel tension because their kids are staying at home longer. Young families are putting off having kids. Mums and dads and grandparents are staying in the workforce longer because they're trying to help their kids with mortgages or with a deposit. And I can get that people are disillusioned in that environment. People are living in very uncertain times. When you have a look at what's happening in the world, in our own region, people are unsettled by what they see on the world stage. And they need a Prime Minister with strength and the ability to stand up for our country and to deal with the issues, whatever they might be, that come our way.
LANGDON: Okay, just to remind people at home too, that neither the Prime Minister or Opposition Leader have any notes, but they do have blank paper where they can write things down. I'm going to hand over to you, Charles.
CROUCHER: Thank you, Ally and gentlemen, thank you for being here. Perhaps the one consistent with both your campaigns is you've accused each other of lying. Here is the chance to refute one of the lie[s], the biggest lie, if you will, that you think each other has told. Mr Dutton, we'll start with you.
DUTTON: Just one?
CROUCHER: Just one.
DUTTON: Cheers, Charles. Making it hard. $600 billion figure comes from a company that is a donor to the Labor Party. Full of donor, Labor staffers, discredited. And it is at odds with the $120 billion figure for the construction of nuclear power sites, which is the CSIRO figure. That's one. The $275, obviously is another broken promise in relation to Medicare, the whole Medicare scare campaign, which has been going on at subsequent elections for a long period of time. The fact is that bulk billing has plummeted under this Prime Minister. People can't afford to go to the doctors because the out of pocket expense now is about $43 per person when you're going to the doctor. That's a lot of money and it's why people are putting off going to the doctor. So, there have been a lot of lies told by Labor over the course of this campaign, but I don't think Australians are stupid. I think they see through it. And I think increasingly, as people test some of the claims being made by the Prime Minister, they realise that at best, your best description of him could be that he's loose with the truth and he says it with a straight face, which is the most remarkable thing.
CROUCHER: Prime Minister, your response to that and the biggest lie you think that's been told about you?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, Medicare is at the centre of this campaign and we will strengthen Medicare. Peter uses a figure about bulk billing that takes into account the fact that Australians had to get COVID shots during the pandemic and that boosted artificially the numbers. But the truth is bulk billing was in free fall because the incoming Liberal Government, the last time they won, ripped $50 billion out of the hospital system. This Minister, when Peter was the Health Minister, tried to introduce a GP tax which would have abolished bulk billing altogether. And when he couldn't do that, what happened was that there was a six-year freeze on the Medicare rebate which sent bulk billing into free fall. Now, during this campaign, Peter has not said where the money is coming from for his nuclear power stations. He won't go anywhere near them. He was in Orange today, just near Lithgow, won't go near them. And he won't go near them because he knows that it just doesn't stack up, which is why the private sector won't fund them.
CROUCHER: And just on bulk billing, will you stake your Prime Ministership on bulk billing rates going up?
PRIME MINISTER: Absolutely. We, we have a plan. And what's more, Charles, what we've done with the tripling of the bulk bill incentive for concession card holders, we know that that worked in lifting the rates for concession card holders. When we do that, it will lift the rates right across the board. And I was in Bridgewater in Tasmania just this week and the facility where we were, the doctor came out and said we will be fully bulk billed as a result of the reforms that we're bringing in.
DUTTON: Can I just respond to that? Because I think it's important to put some of the facts on the table here. We need a strong general practice network. All of us as parents understand that we need to have access to a doctor, it needs to be affordable and we need to have a strong general practice network with an ageing workforce where we're encouraging young doctors to come through. The fact is that the Prime Minister points to the bulk billing rate at the time of COVID which was 88 per cent. Before that, before going into COVID, it was at 84 per cent. It wasn't in free fall. Today, the bulk billing rate is at 77 per cent. When we were in government and I was the Health Minister, hospital funding went up by 16 per cent. And the Prime Minister stands here with a straight face and says what he knows not to be true. And I think, again, it would be great to see him called out because he continues to repeat these mistruths. And Australians deserve better from their Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it's just the fact that the Budget Papers in 2014 have line items there. $50 billion ripped out of Health, $30 billion ripped out of Education. That was the 2014 Abbott Budget.
DUTTON: Education went from $13 billion to $25 billion Prime Minister. What you're talking about is the growth. Your argument, and I'll pay you credit on this, your argument is that the growth should have been higher and the growth was there every year. The funding went up every year. Surely you can see that what you're saying is that it should have gone up by a bit more each year. And that's what you describe as a cut, but in actual fact, if you're telling the truth –
PRIME MINISTER: No, you described it as a cut. The 2014 Budget described it as a cut, as a saving.
DUTTON: If you were being honest, you would admit that funding went up each year –
PRIME MINISTER: $50 billion in health, $30 billion in education –
DUTTON: – each and every year–
PRIME MINISTER: Well, our population is increasing. You had the allocation that had been previously put in the Budget prior to you coming to office. You ripped $80 billion out of those two items in 2014.
DUTTON: Prime Minister, you couldn't lie straight in bed. Honestly, this is unbelievable.
PRIME MINISTER: You can go to abuse –
DUTTON: Well, it's just the reality –
PRIME MINISTER: You can go to personal abuse – that's a sign of desperation, Peter, frankly.
DUTTON: As he's lying –
PRIME MINISTER: That's a sign of desperation. Go to the 2014 Budget Papers. People can do that online. It's all available for all to see.
DUTTON: What’s the bulk billing rate today? Let’s look at the figures now –
LANGDON: Okay, I feel like we've given a fair bit of latitude to this one, I think we're done with this one. We've got a lot to get through tonight. I appreciate that. And we've allowed a fair bit of latitude there. I'd like to say at home too. We're giving about 30 seconds for rebuttals, if you're sort of trying to follow the rules. Deb, I'm going to hand over to you now.
KNIGHT: Ally, thank you. Gentlemen, you say you model yourselves on leaders like John Howard, like Bob Hawke, who had big ideas, brought in big changes to the country. But you're both playing it very safe this campaign. Prime Minister, did you lose your appetite for bold reform when you lost the Voice Referendum?
PRIME MINISTER: Not at all. Affordable childcare, we want to make it universal and move forward. Just like it's only Labor governments that do the big reforms. Universal healthcare through Medicare, universal superannuation and of course the National Disability Insurance Scheme, all programs that I was very proud of as the Labor Leader. Affordable childcare, the universal provision of that is something we are moving towards. We've done step one. Step two, we'll go forward with abolishing the activity test, the three day guarantee for childcare. That's just one of the big reforms that we're putting in place as well as, of course, the clean energy transition, is the most significant transformation in our economy that we've seen, in the global economy, indeed, since perhaps the Industrial Revolution.
LANGDON: Okay, gentlemen, can I just say too, I mean, so many emails that we received coming in ahead of tonight that people are sick of the talking points, that they feel that you often revert to. And tonight are looking for, those who are undecided, who are unconvinced, are looking for something to get them across the line. They want to feel inspired, they want to feel that leadership and speaking from the heart is what gives them that. I'm going to hand over now to the AFR's Phil Coorey with a question for Mr Dutton.
COOREY: Thanks, Ally. Look, Mr Dutton, in reference to your campaign, you've had your fair share of stumbles and one memorable policy backflip on the work from home. But probably one of the bigger factors, overriding factors, has been a tendency of voters to associate you in a negative fashion with Donald Trump, something that's been helped along by, by the Prime Minister and Labor. What do you say to those voters out there who think you're a lightweight version of the unpopular US president?
DUTTON: Well, Phil, I've been in Parliament since 2001. I served under four Prime Ministers and I've watched seven Prime Ministers in total. I believe that I've got the experience to bring to this job. My biggest influence in my political life was John Howard and Peter Costello. I worked as Assistant Treasurer and I have taken inspiration from them, both in terms of how to keep our economy strong and how to keep our country safe. This election is between the Prime Minister and I. And the reason that you get all of the negative ads and the lies and the mudslinging and the rest of it. To Ally's point before is that the Government doesn't have a good story to tell of the last three years. If families were better off, child care was spoken about before. Child care has gone up by 22 per cent under this Government, out of pocket expenses up by 13 per cent. So, this election is about how as a party, and what I'm saying to the Australian people is that we want support at the election for your Liberal National candidates to provide support straight away to help you with the cost of living crisis and our reforms beyond that fix up the energy system which has caused the cost of everything, including groceries, to go up by 30 per cent.
LANGDON: Okay, well, let's talk about that a little bit more. That's your minute up. We're going to talk about that a little bit more now because I think that is what is the heart of this election, is for many people who are struggling to get by, it is deciding between do they do the grocery shop, is it the power bills, insurance, putting fuel in the car and are our leaders in touch? Phil.
COOREY: Mr Albanese, you said three years ago that people would be better off under Labor at the end of the first term. I would suspect that most people don't think, pardon me, think that's the case at the moment. So, why should voters trust you, to give you, trust you for another three years?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, Phil, we understand that many people are doing it tough, which is why we've provided significant cost of living relief. But we've had to do it in a way that put that downward pressure on inflation. As a result, inflation has a two in front of it, 2.4. But at the same time we've created a million jobs. We have provided cost of living relief, whether it be cheaper child care, free TAFE for 600,000 people, energy bill relief, importantly as well, tax cuts. One of the big decisions that we made was to change, what I did say we would do, we said we wouldn't take such the tax cuts. We intervened to make sure that everyone got a tax cut and that's why going forward as well, we'll make sure that there are further tax cuts, two occasions. The Coalition are promising to put income taxes up if they're successful as well. The final point I'll make is what goes in matters as well. Real wages have increased five quarters in a row under us. They went down five quarters in a row the last five quarters that the former government was in office.
COOREY: Are you prepared to repeat that, pledge that in another three years’ time?
PRIME MINISTER: We certainly want people to be better off in three years’ time and that is what it's about. But if we hadn't provided that cost of living relief, people would have been $7,200 worse off if Mr Dutton and others had got their way and had blocked that cost of living relief that we've provided.
CROUCHER: Mr Dutton, given Phil's point there that people aren't feeling better, why aren't you miles ahead in this election? And more to the point, why are you seemingly quite a long way behind when it comes to women of a working age?
DUTTON: Well, Charles, I think, as you saw in the 2019 election, there was a very different outcome on election day compared to where the polling indicated going through the course of the election. And I believe that we've got a very strong chance at the next election. A first term government hasn't lost since 1931, but there's not been a worse government in Australia's history since 1931 than this one. So, we have to make sure that we have the policy alternatives that people can embrace. And 25 cents a litre cut in fuel straight away, $1,200 by way of a tax rebate, back to Australians to help them deal with the cost of living crisis that's been created. Tax deductibility on the first $650,000 of a mortgage for a first home buyer, the five per cent deposit, 500,000 new homes being created. And we're going to cut migration, we're going to stop foreign buyers from competing against young Australians, and we're not going to have the big Australia policy that Mr Albanese has implemented but never spoke about before the election. And that has had huge impacts on Australians in the housing market, on our infrastructure, health and education systems right across the board.
KNIGHT: We have seen global oil prices plummeting since Donald Trump hit everyone with tariffs. And petrol prices thankfully are starting to come down, which was a nice thing for everyone on their road trips over Easter. Mr Dutton, is it still the best use of taxpayer dollars to be halving the fuel excise?
DUTTON: Deb it is because it goes across the economy. So, it's not just for families who are doing it tough. Pensioners are really doing it tough because they've got fixed incomes and rising costs under this Government. Electricity is up by 32 per cent, gas is up by 34 per cent. And for those pensioners and self-funded retirees, for small businesses as well, they benefit. So, whether the petrol's at $2 a litre or $1.50 a litre, it will always be 25 cents cheaper under us.
KNIGHT: But is it still the key cost of living concern? People –
DUTTON: Well –
KNIGHT: Insurance costs are skyrocketing, petrol prices are coming down.
DUTTON: But they're still saving 25 cents a litre every time you fill up the tank. So, it's $14 every tank. For a two car family, it's $28 a week and it's providing assistance until we can get Labor's mess sorted out. A Liberal government always comes in to clean up a Labor mess, as Howard did in ‘96, as we will have to do after the election. And that way we can help families. At the moment, the Government's energy policy, with this renewables only policy, that's the reason that we've got 30 per cent increases in food. Because it's not just your power bill that's gone up, it's the local farmer, it's a local IGA store, it's the storage, it's the cartage, it's the production of food right across the economy. And that's why people are really struggling and that's why costs are so high.
KNIGHT: And on the cost of power, Prime Minister, you didn't deliver the promised $275 cut to power prices at the last election and your extended power rebate to bring the price of bills down, it also applies to billionaires like Twiggy Forrest and Gina Rinehart. Why not means test handouts so that you could ensure that all the Australians who really need help can get it.
PRIME MINISTER: Because of the way the rebate works, you have two options. One is to apply it to everyone, which is what we're doing. The second is to apply it just to concession card holders. We understand that many working people deserve that support as well –
KNIGHT: But billionaires don't –
PRIME MINISTER: Which is why we are providing it across the board. Peter's relief that he spoke about largely disappears in a year's time. And just as, Mr Morrison did the same thing, from the same playbook of the 2022 budget. What we had to do when we came into office was clean up the mess, turn Liberal party deficits. $78 billion was what was predicted in that first year. We turned that into a $22 billion surplus. We turned the next year's deficit of above $50 billion into another surplus, $15 billion. We've halved this year's deficit. Why is that important to people at home? It's important because that's how you get inflation down, which is what we have done, get it down to the bottom half of that Reserve Bank band, which is why interest rates are now falling. They started to rise before we came to office.
LANGDON: Okay, I've got a couple of questions direct from viewers. The first one's to you, Prime Minister. It's from Barry and Deborah H who say their home and contents insurance will jump 57 per cent next year despite never making a claim. They can't afford that. Their question is how can inflation be kept under control when insurance companies are allowed to get away with such hikes?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, you've got to have a whole of government response. That is precisely what we have done. The first is running responsible economic fiscal policy. That is getting those deficits, turning them either into surpluses or reducing what the deficit is. The second is you've got to be careful about how you provide cost of living support. So, we've done it in a way that has helped to bring down inflation. So, fee free TAFE, for example, has helped 600,000 people get the skills they need, but it's also helped them get something for free, and it helps the country because it helps build those skills up.
LANGDON: Okay, to you, Mr Dutton. This one is from Kerryn. She's a single mum, works for minimum wage and often skips meals so her kids can eat. She can barely cover the rent and is worried that she'll soon be homeless. She sees nothing in what you're putting forward that helps her. So, what do you say to her? Because right now she does not have a lot of hope.
DUTTON: Well, Ally, on the expenses that this lady's facing and that many Australians are facing at the moment, the Prime Minister spoke about insurance. It's up by 35 per cent under this Government and the Government doesn't have a clue what they should do about it. But it's not just insurance, it's every cost in a household budget. And the question is, how can we help families? One, for that family, on an average income, a $1,200 rebate of tax that you've paid. $14 a week in filling up your car, if you're a single mum, that's a big expense. We can provide relief in the household budget items, particularly around energy, through our natural gas for Australians policy, which brings down the wholesale cost of gas by 23 per cent and that has a flow on impact right across the economy. So, it means that everybody's energy costs go down as a result of that. The Government hasn't implemented that and they could have. So, I think there are ways in which we can provide support. The 25 cent a litre fuel cut, the $1,200 rebate, and providing support addressing the inherent problems that we've got in the economy which have been created again because of the energy crisis –
LANGDON: That’s your time Mr Dutton –
DUTTON: That's how we can help.
LANGDON: Thank you.
PRIME MINISTER: Ally, can I just say that a number of things that Mr Dutton is committing to are things that are happening already and an example of that is the rental assistance for people, we've increased by 45 per cent, we increased in rental assistance. When it comes to gas, we have intervened into the market. The Coalition oppose that intervention. On the day of the last election, gas prices were $34. Today it's $13 as a direct result of the policies that we have put in place, including the domestic gas security mechanism.
LANGDON: Okay, that was your 30 seconds for rebuttal. We did touch on housing there and I want to get more to the point of affordable housing. Deb, I'm going to hand it over to you.
KNIGHT: Ally, thank you. The sad truth of it is that young people are giving up on the great Australian dream of owning their own home. Prime Minister, will your plans really see a young couple on an average wage be able to afford to buy a home if prices keep rising the way they are?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, they will, Deb, for a range of reasons. One of which is, of course, by having a five per cent deposit. And we know that it works. 150,000 Australian families have benefited from it. Instead of families continuing to try and save to get to that 20 per cent deposit. And they keep going backwards. They never get there because house prices keep increasing. By having a five per cent deposit, it brings it within reach. That's just one way that we are doing that. The second, of course, is reserving 100,000 homes for first home buyers. That will make a difference. And the third is our Help to Buy scheme, which has worked very effectively in places like Western Australia, which is essentially a shared ownership scheme. So, the Government can have up to 40 per cent of ownership of a home. And when a family are in a position to pay that offer at the end, when it's sold, then that payment can be made down as well. It's a way of assisting people into home ownership. It's worked effectively right throughout Western Australia since the 1970s.
CROUCHER: Mr Dutton, your son Harry has been on the campaign and has spoken about home ownership. If elected, would you advise him to take money from his superannuation, as your policy allows, and put it into a first home?
DUTTON: I would, Charles, because I think if we had this policy in place, say five years ago, there would have been the option for young Australians to be in home ownership territory. And if they did that, their net position today would be hundreds of thousands of dollars better off. To a couple of points, because I think housing is one of the most crucial issues at this election, and I agree with you, Deb, young Australians have given up the dream of home ownership. And when you bring a million people in over a two year period, the biggest number in our country's history by 70 per cent, they all want homes for their kids and for their families and they're competing against Australians. And that's why we've got the problem we have. What do we do about it? Well, we've said that we want to increase supply of housing so we can put $5 billion into working with councils and creating 500,000 new lots. That brings the supply of housing on, which is really important because the CFMEU has really crunched the construction costs and the building rate in our country. We can reduce demand by cutting migration, which we're committed to doing. And we can provide support to young people either through first home buyers or, the Prime Minister made reference to the five per cent deposit. That was actually a Coalition policy. And we’ll continue that because it's an important part of getting kids into home ownership.
LANGDON: That's your time, Mr Dutton. Thank you.
COOREY: So, Mr Dutton, both of you have been promising housing policies which focus almost exclusively on supply. I want to ask you about the tax treatment of investment. Not negative gearing, but the capital gains tax discount that the Howard government introduced. Economists say that working with negative gearing has exacerbated the problem. Will you have a look at the CGT discount if you get into government?
DUTTON: Phil we're not going to change the CGT discount. We're not going to change negative gearing. Obviously, the Prime Minister, as every political commentator has pointed out, can only form government along with Adam Bandt after the election, which would be a disaster for our country. Interest rates go up because spending will go up under a Labor Greens government and that will mean higher interest rates for every Australian with a mortgage. I want to make sure that we can have the tax settings in place so that we can encourage investment, because young Australians have to rent for a period of time until they can afford to get into their own home. And if we don't have investors in the market, then we don't have that rental accommodation and we reduce the stock of housing. So, we need to get that balance right. But the Prime Minister is already committed to taxing an unrealised capital gain. So, this will give an insight into where Labor is going. Labor's always wanted to end negative gearing, which would be a disaster for people who are saving for a rental property to try and support themselves in retirement or to have a house that they might give to one of their kids when they pass away. I think we have an enormous opportunity if we can change government at the next election to fix up the housing crisis that Labor's created.
PRIME MINISTER: The problem for the Coalition is that they said that prior to the last election and we've made no changes to negative gearing or capital gains tax. The proof is in the pudding.
COOREY: Why is it a good idea for two elections in a row and not now?
PRIME MINISTER: We're in Government, and what we are concentrating on is supply. We won't be making the changes that you suggest because we're concerned that it would have a negative impact on supply and would push up rents. That is why we are not making those changes and we haven't done so. But this idea that the housing crisis has occurred over the last two years is just a nonsense. Just a nonsense. And everyone out there knows that it's the case. And they didn't even bother to have a Housing Minister for half of the time that they were in government.
COOREY: Can I ask you about rents, Mr Albanese? There are many factors contributing to the current rent crisis. I think about a third the nation now rents. One of those, a small but significant contributor is the rise in Airbnb, especially in inner city areas and in the regions, in tourist areas. Long-term renters are being kicked out for Airbnb. We've seen other countries around the world, other jurisdictions around the world clamp down on it. Do you think it's time we looked at that here as well? Part of the solution?
PRIME MINISTER: I am concerned that that is part of the impact, and some state governments have looked very closely at that, including in Victoria. But the idea that just to address as well a past point that Peter has made, migration has come down by the numbers have come down by 31 per cent in the last year. The idea that numbers weren't going to go up, and the figures, Peter has the gold and silver medal for the most number of visas that have been issued by any migration minister since Federation. That is just a fact. The numbers were always going to go up when the borders opened after COVID because Australian citizens were coming home. And that is something that had an effect on the NOM. And that's why we've intervened to restrict student numbers and getting those numbers down. Peter needs to identify which visa categories are going to be restricted in what he says in getting the numbers down, because we haven't heard that during the campaign. Like we haven't heard any other detail behind the Coalition's policies.
LANGDON: Okay, thank you, Prime Minister. We're going to move on from the housing policies, but I mean a lot of the feedback that we've been getting, particularly young people looking at both of your policies, that you're patching cracks, but they don't feel that there is any actual solution in a lot of what you're putting forward that's going to help them. But I want to shift away from hip pocket for just a bit because our relationship with the US has changed fundamentally under Donald Trump. It's hit our, the superannuation funds hard, it's created global unrest and it has upset conservative politics. Both of our leaders say they prioritise a visit to Mr Trump. Deb.
KNIGHT: Mr Dutton, you've revealed that you've never met or spoken to Donald Trump. Do you still think that you would be the only leader on earth to get a better deal for Australia on tariffs?
DUTTON: Well, Deb, a couple of points. One is that I dealt with the Obama Administration as a senior minister, I dealt with the Trump Mark One Administration as a senior minister –
KNIGHT: But no other country has received any exemption from tariffs. Why would you be the one leader to achieve that?
DUTTON: And I also dealt obviously intimately with the Biden Administration. We negotiated the AUKUS submarine deal which no other country had been able to do since the 1950s. We negotiated an arrangement with President Biden's Administration, a Liberal government working with the Democrat government to broker a deal for the United States to share their nuclear-powered secrets. To the Prime Minister's credit, he was then Opposition Leader, supported the position that we took. That's the first point I'd make in terms of my experience in relation to international affairs. Secondly, when we were in government during the Trump Mark One period, we were able to negotiate an exemption for Australia in a way that other countries hadn't been able to do it. Our Ambassador at the moment, a captain's pick from the Prime Minister, Mr Rudd is in there, can't get a phone call with the President, cannot even get into the West Wing. And so no wonder the Government's had no hope of putting Australia's case. The Prime Minister himself can't get a phone call or meeting.
COOREY: Okay, PM on that. You have, I think, asked twice now official request in the last month for conversation with the President. Has he rung you back yet? Are you expecting it?
PRIME MINISTER: We're continuing to engage constructively.
COOREY: I think that's a no –
PRIME MINISTER: But Peter, Peter puts forward this complete nonsense that the whole of the world, including every US ally has not been able to get an exemption, but he's going to be able to achieve it. And indeed he was so loose that when President Trump announced the tariffs on every country and we got the best deal of any country at 10 per cent, Peter said that we should put the defence relationship on the table for negotiation. Now that's not something that I will do. Peter was right in pointing out that we supported AUKUS when the Morrison Government came up with the idea, that was when Opposition Leaders were constructive and I played a constructive role. And it stands in stark contrast with this constant opposition and carping that we have heard, including just last week, the verballing, of course, of the President of Indonesia, a really important relationship that we have that was damaged by the comments that Mr Dutton made last week.
DUTTON: I'll just make a point if I could in response to that, because the Prime Minister, again, is being loose with the truth, if I'm being polite. The fact is that what I said, Prime Minister, which you've completely missed, is the opportunity for us to leverage in the relationship, we've got an enormous defence industry in this country. You've taken $80 billion out of defence. Our argument is –
PRIME MINISTER: Well, that's just not true –
DUTTON: Our argument is –
PRIME MINISTER: That is complete nonsense.
DUTTON: – our argument is we want to make sure that the American side of the equation in this discussion around tariffs, is aware of what more we could put into the defence relationship. It's not about taking away, it's about putting more on. In relation to critical minerals, you've had three years to do this deal. It hasn't been done. And yet we are in a perfect position to add value to the relationship with the US. If we do that, that is part of the way in which we can leverage a better outcome for our country. The Prime Minister has no idea in relation to those options, otherwise he would have explored them by now.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the truth is, that I went to San Diego and signed the AUKUS agreements with the meat on the bone, all the details there, AUKUS Pillar One and Pillar Two, to our mutual benefit there with President Biden. And we continue to, we continue to engage with our friends in the United States, but we've also repaired the relationships in our region, whether that be the Pacific, Southeast Asia, as well as our traditional allies.
CROUCHER: Prime Minister, I want to pick up there because there is a contest in our region, often between the United States and China. Given the work that the Government has done. Mr Dutton, what makes you think you have the temperament and the relationships around our region to improve the situation for the allies of Australia?
DUTTON: Well, Charles, I bring more experience to this job than any predecessor. I've been the Defence Minister of our country, been the Home Affairs Minister, the Immigration Minister. I've been on the front bench of the Liberal Party in government and opposition since 2004. As I said earlier, I've worked with four Prime Ministers and I've watched them very closely, the good and the bad. And I've learnt from each. And I believe very strongly that we have the runs on the board. I've got a good friendship and relationship with the PNG Prime Minister. I met the current President of Indonesia when he was Defence Minister. I had a meeting with him in Canberra when he was the President-elect. I've got good relationships in the United States, in the United Kingdom, in Canada, in Japan, and that has built up over a period of time. And I'm very proud of the connections globally that I have. And I believe not just me, but our team is highly experienced and has the ability to bring together the best opportunity for us to stand proud on the world stage. The problem is that Australia is seen at the moment with a weak leader. Not just from Australians, but also from our international counterparts who see a weak leader in the Lodge and that's why families are suffering.
LANGDON: Just keep our eyes on the time please, gentlemen, we do know the minute is up.
CROUCHER: Prime Minister, you may wish to respond to that in this question, but what do you see as the biggest threat to Australia right now?
PRIME MINISTER: Complacency and the uncertain world that we inherit. In an uncertain times, it's the last, last time where you'd want to take a risk. Peter spoke about his long experience and that's true, but that's the problem. Every Pacific leader remembers him joking about water lapping at their doors. For the Pacific Island neighbours it's not a joke, climate change, it's something that is the entry fee to credibility in our region. With our ASEAN neighbours, I brought every ASEAN leader down to Australia last March. Every leader came here and we've developed constructive relationships. We've managed to build our relationship with Japan and Korea, including our defence relationships. At the same time as we've restored more normal relations with China, bringing back $20 billion of trade that was stopped with the impediments that were put in place. There was not even a phone call between any Australian Government minister and our major trading partner during the last term of Parliament.
LANGDON: That's it. Thank you kindly. Now I'll tell you what, it's fun reffing this. I'm glad I haven't had to sin bin anybody. I mean a buzzer, a whistle, whatever we need. What we're going to do now, we're going to pause for a moment, give our leaders a quick breather and when we return we're going to turn things up a notch. Who has the character to lead this country for the next three years? You're watching the great debate across Australia and on Nine.
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LANGDON: Welcome back to the Great Debate. Getting to the heart of the issues that matter to you this election. It's like coming back from halftime at the footy. What you didn't see in the ad break is both leaders frantically writing notes. PM anything you want to share?
PRIME MINISTER: Nope, not yet. All good.
LANGDON: How about you, Mr Dutton?
DUTTON: Bread and milk on the way home.
LANGDON: Okay. Love it. Love it.
PRIME MINISTER: You're going to Brisbane.
LANGDON: Okay, the first question is to you, Mr Dutton. The last time the Coalition won from Opposition, Tony Abbott had a very clear, simple slogan, ‘Stop the boats, end the waste, repeal the carbon tax.’ People knew what they were voting for. What does the Coalition stand for, other than being against Albanese?
DUTTON: Well Ally, we're for a cut of 25 cents a litre in people's fuel, which is –
LANGDON: But not the talking points. Not what, we've heard that tonight. What do you stand for?
DUTTON: You can distil that to cut the tax, cut the fuel tax or however you want to present it. But it's a 25 cent a litre reduction in fuel from day one. It's $1,200 bucks of your own money back as a tax rebate to help you deal with the cost of living realities now it’s about realising the dream of home ownership again. We're going to cut migration and we're going to provide support through the tax deductibility to get young people into homes. We're going to, as we announced yesterday, make Australia safer because we've got a $750 million plan to stop drugs and stop illegal tobacco coming across our borders as best we can to keep families safe in communities. And we're going to keep our country safe by investing more in defence as well. That's the, that's the proposition that we've got now. There's an energy policy about bringing more gas in, about bringing baseload power in. People will have their different trigger points, but people know that a Coalition government more effectively manages the economy. If we do that, we can bring inflation down, we can help families get through this god awful period of the last three years and help get their own budgets back on track.
LANGDON: And there is your time. Mr Albanese. Last election there were some who felt like you ran a campaign of ‘I'm not Scott Morrison.’ And there are some who feel this time that you're running a campaign of ‘I'm not Peter Dutton.’ Are you hoping to win by default?
PRIME MINISTER: Not at all. I have a very clear philosophy that can be summed up with two phrases, really. No one left behind, but no one held back. What do I mean by that? No one left behind, that the vulnerable people. That's why we are putting additional money into public housing. That's why we changed the single parenting payment. That's why we increased rental assistance by 45 per cent. That's why we will always look after the vulnerable. Bringing medicines down to just $25, same price they were in 2004. No one held back. That's about opportunity. That's why we're putting in place the better and fairer schools funding for every school so that every child is valued. That's why free TAFE makes a difference, to give people those apprenticeships and those skills that they need. The Universities Accord, that's why child care is so important as well. Human brain development, 90 per cent occurs in the first five years. So, those two philosophies are what drive my Government. You need a strong economy in order to do it and that's what we have done in repairing so much damage from what we inherited.
LANGDON: Okay, I'm handing back over to you, Nine Radio's Deb Knight.
KNIGHT: Mr Dutton, we don't see a lot of your softer side. Do you think that your time as a police officer led you to have a black and white view of the world.
DUTTON: Deb, look, I've spoken about this publicly. I think my time as a police officer, where you see some truly horrible things, you're dealing with victims of crime who are in the worst moment in their lives. And I do think you become, hardened is a word that people use. And I think when you go to deliver a death message to a family whose son has overdosed, or you go to a shooting or to a car accident where a child's been killed, I do think that has a big impact on you, and it certainly has on me. I've always been serious in my public life as a police officer and since I've been in Parliament in protecting people. And I'm very genuine about that. Women and children in particular. And that's been the focus of much of my work in Parliament. I've been successful in business, obviously, and I have the experience in terms of budget management. They're all pretty serious issues. As Defence Minister, you're talking about lifting people out of Kabul, or as Immigration Minister, bringing women out of the Middle East and settling them in Australia. They're all pretty serious matters. And I think we all are shaped by our own life experiences. But I hope what it says to people is that I'm absolutely determined and passionate about getting our country into the best possible position, to keeping us safe, to keeping the economy running well so that families can get some breathing room again and can live again financially.
KNIGHT: And Prime Minister, these are uncertain times that we're living in. You've said so yourself. What do you say to the Opposition claims that you're too soft, that you're too wishy washy? Do we need more of a hard man as a leader?
PRIME MINISTER: It's just rhetoric. Kindness isn't weakness. Kindness is something that I was raised with. We've, we raise our children to be compassionate with each other, but I've been capable of making tough decisions. You don't turn a $78 billion deficit into a $22 billion surplus without making tough decisions.
KNIGHT: But how do you deal with uncompromising leaders like Donald Trump or President Xi or Vladimir Putin? With kindness?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, no, I've managed to be firm about Australia's position and we've managed to, for example, on China, we have repaired the relationship without compromising any of Australia's values. That has been very important. We've continued to deal with AUKUS, for example, putting it in place. Some people don't like that. That's Australia's position. It's in our national interest. On issues like nuclear powered submarines, not everyone in the Labor Party was wrapped by that at the beginning. I took the argument to the ALP National Conference, put it through. We're putting it in place. I've been in public life, like Peter, for a long period of time and you don't get to be Prime Minister and to lead the Labor Party without a toughness, it's a tough forum.
LANGDON: I think we can all agree politics is pretty brutal, particularly when you're in campaign mode. Look, we've been hearing all the –
DUTTON: Sorry. Fortunately, Ally, none of our kids have decided that politics is a good pursuit for them. That is a relief to all of us. I'm sure I speak to the Prime Minister on that.
LANGDON: So, look, we've seen a lot of promises made this election campaign. We've heard a lot of them sort of rolled out tonight, costing a heck of a lot of money. And words like fiscal responsibility and surplus are the things we're not hearing. Someone at some point has to pay for it. So, let's turn loose the AFR. Phil.
COOREY: Thanks, Ally. PM, look, you mentioned your two surpluses tonight, and if I can just take issue, the $78 billion you inherited was actually, deficit was actually a forecast. The actual number was $31 billion.
PRIME MINISTER: What’s, was forecast by the former government.
COOREY: Sure, but the actual number was 31. And next year you're forecasting a $42 billion surplus, which is bigger in both dollar terms and as a share of the economy. So, you could argue the Budget's actually in worse nick in terms of deficit. But I digress. Spending at the moment is running at about, spending growth is running at about 6 per cent this year. We talk about raising revenue to balance the budget. Have you in mind any spending cuts or any spending restraint to get spending back under control? Back under 6 per cent?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, Phil, that 2022 budget that you referred to didn't have any spending saves at all in it. We've made $95 billion of savings in our first term. We have improved the budget bottom line by some $207 billion across the board with $178 billion less debt. Less debt. And as a result, Australians have saved $60 billion in interest payments. They're just a fact from the 2022 budget. So, we have shown our economic responsibility. We didn't promise a surplus, but we've delivered two. The former government, when they came into office, promised, you would recall, Joe Hockey promised a surplus in the first year and every year thereafter, and they produced a big duck egg. Zero. Just deficit after deficit and the current deficit of course is there, but we've halved it, we’ll continue to work on savings, continue to produce value because we understand how important it is.
DUTTON: Can I just respond to it?
COOREY: Well, I'll ask you a similar question if I may. You've talked about the need for economic surgery if you win, to get the budget back under control, the deficit under control. You've told us where you're not going to cut. You've listed those areas. Any sort of clues to voters where you will be looking beyond what you've already announced?
DUTTON: Well, Phil, a couple of I think really important points. Firstly, without getting sort of too geeky in the economics of it, what's happened here is that the Prime Minister has benefited from a variation in the commodity prices. That means that the prices of iron ore and our other commodities have gone up and that's what's given the Government a bigger revenue than expected. The fact is that this Government has spent $425 billion more and that makes it the biggest spending government in 40 years. And if you look at that scenario, that's what has led the Reserve Bank Governor to warn Australians and to warn this Government that our homegrown inflation problem is of the Government's making. That's why interest rates have gone up on 12 occasions. The Prime Minister spoke before about interest rates coming back. They've come back by 0.25 of 1 per cent and they're not looking like they're coming back anytime soon unless they throw us into a recession. So, we will look at government expenditure and as again we've done in the past as a Liberal government, we will look at the budget. We'll see where the Government's wasting money. I think every Australian look at their own budgets now and if they're having to tighten their belt, so too should the Federal Government because if we don't, that's what drives interest rates up.
CROUCHER: On that issue, the total interest payments this financial year, I think around $24.5 billion. That's roughly one and a half, $1.7 million in the time we've been on air tonight. Do you both have commitments to bring that down so it's not just kicked forward to the future, beginning with you, Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the Leader of the Opposition just made an extraordinary comment which is, exemplifies one of the things this election is about, him talking Australia down. He just talked about recession and said that was inevitable, said that was the only way that interest rates would come down. He verballed the Reserve Bank Governor –
DUTTON: You’re loose with the truth PM, let me tell you. You are loose with the truth.
PRIME MINISTER: The Reserve Bank Governor, who has not said that at all, and the Reserve Bank Governor, we as the Government work closely with. They of course are independent, but I expect all of the markets say, if I can put it that way, that interest rates will come down. The advice we have from Treasury is that certainly we’ll continue to see economic growth in this country and that is what we're about achieving. Talking Australia down does not assist anybody, any of the listeners at home and certainly doesn't assist our economy.
CROUCHER: Mr Dutton, are there concrete savings that can come that don't push that huge interest payments to future generations?
DUTTON: Well, Charles, when John Howard came into power, there was $96 billion of debt from Labor. At that point, John Howard didn't outline the budget from opposition and it's not something you can do from opposition. I've been involved in expenditure review committees in government and in opposition for a long period of time. And you work through with the central agencies, with Treasury and Finance, et cetera, to identify where there are problems in the budget. It's no coincidence that this Government delivered two surpluses right at the start of their term and then every year into the future under their economic projections, it's all red ink. Deficits every year. What they inherited from us allowed them to go into two years of surplus. They've blown that money and now, of course, they've made economic decisions which, as Phil points out, have thrust us into deficits for many years to come. And that interest bill is going to be borne by the next generation. And cleaning it up will be a big job, there’s no question.
PRIME MINISTER: We know that the last time that the Coalition came to government wasn't John Howard, it was Tony Abbott. And Peter was a senior minister. And they ripped money out of education, they ripped money out of hospitals, they ripped money out of a whole range of areas and had a devastating budget there in 2014. And now what Peter wants the viewers at home to do is to vote for him. There'll be cuts afterwards. He's just confirmed that. But they won't tell you what they are. Now that's just not being fair dinkum. He needs to come up with where the cuts will be, because on top of everything else, there's no plan for how they pay with their nuclear reactor plan. And we know that that will cost hundreds of billions of dollars and we know as well that it will put up prices because the private sector won't touch it with a barge pole.
LANGDON: Okay, I just want to say there that I'm not sure that anyone at home is feeling that like either of you are being fiscally responsible at the moment. And we're really concerned about the level of debt we're going to be leaving our grandkids. There's been a whole lot of stuff we've talked about throughout this campaign, but there have also been a few topics that are barely getting a mention. I'll hand over to you, Deb.
KNIGHT: Well, we've got an ageing population in this country. We haven't heard much at all this election campaign about aged care or about pensioners. Prime Minister, why haven't older Australians featured as much in this campaign as the young?
PRIME MINISTER: We've done so much in aged care, Deb. The biggest aged care reform –
KNIGHT: So, is it fixed?
PRIME MINISTER: This century. Not at all. Because we inherited a mess. There was an Aged Care Royal Commission that its interim report was defined by, the title was called ‘Neglect.’ In one word. What we've done is get nurses back into nursing homes 99 per cent of the time. Coalition said that wasn't possible. We have literally millions of additional minutes every day being provided for people who are aged care residents. We've provided for a 28 per cent increase in the wages of the aged care workforce.
KNIGHT: But does the focus on younger people over older people this election, does it have anything to do with the fact that the young outnumber the older people for the first time this election in terms of voters?
PRIME MINISTER: No, we'll continue to talk about aged care because we're very proud of what we have been able to achieve in such a short period of time. And that turnaround. If we didn't fix the workforce, what was happening was that people were leaving the workforce because they could earn more money stacking shelves. Now, we needed to do that as a precondition. In addition to that as well, the aged care workforce are being assisted by the free TAFE and training, making sure that older Australians get the dignity and care that they deserve.
CROUCHER: Mr Dutton, welfare groups have consistently asked for increases in the base payments that welfare recipients receive in Australia. Is that something you’d consider or do you believe it is still possible just to work your way out of poverty?
DUTTON: Well, Charles, I understand the ask and understand that people are in a very difficult situation and would want to see that increase. I don't believe that our economy, that our budget can afford to do that at the moment. And part of the reason that we want to manage the economy well, part of the reason that we want to bring inflation down, to Deb's earlier point, not just in relation to people on unemployment benefits, for example on Newstart, but also for pensioners as well, people who are on fixed incomes. The problem is that whilst their income is fixed, their costs have gone through the roof. And this is my point about providing the interim assistance through the 25 cent a litre cut in fuel, giving $1,200 back, making sure that pensioners, if they choose to do so, can work longer hours without their pension being impacted. That's a policy we've announced. And providing that interim assistance and then getting the economic settings right, including the energy system around gas and electricity, bringing those prices down, because that's what will bring grocery prices down for pensioners and for those who are on fixed incomes across the economy.
CROUCHER: I'd like to look inward briefly, if I can. The news bargaining incentives are vital for nights like tonight that help the viewers and help the voters. Do you both commit to ensure that multinational big tech organisations don't cannibalise Australian news services?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, absolutely. And that's why we've put it in place. And that's why as well, when the Trump administration have raised that as one of the issues that they're concerned about, we have not budged. Like we won't budge on the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme. Like we won't budge on our bio-protections are there for the ag sector as well.
DUTTON: Well, I think on this we can find common ground. We're on a unity ticket. And when we were in government, we introduce the scheme and it provides support to journalism and it provides equity in the relationship and the way in which the big companies have conducted themselves. I think particularly not just in relation to media companies, but in relation to kids online as well. I think they just see our kids as the commodity, as a profit line online. And we've worked really hard to hold those companies to account, to provide a safer place online and to make sure that the big media companies treat our kids with respect according to the law, and that it's not this lawless zoo where our kids are being groomed or asked for photos, identities being stolen. And that's a big part of what I hope that our government can achieve as well.
PRIME MINISTER: Can I say, as well, at the risk of bipartisanship breaking out here, the social media ban that Australia is implementing with bipartisan support is world leading. There is no question in my mind that in the lead up to December, when it comes into force, you will see major pressure being placed on, by some of these social media giants. We can all agree, I think, in Australia, that social media has a social responsibility and we are very firm on that. And that's one of the things that my Government has got done with bipartisan support.
LANGDON: Okay. And can I say, as a parent of young kids, I thank both of you for that. I knew we'd reach a point where you'd agree on something. We've got unity. And now, you know what I'm going to bring up? It's all going to go out the window because there is one issue you have very different ideas on. Power. Energy. Phil.
COOREY: Starting with you, Mr Dutton. The election has variously been described as a referendum on several things, one of them being nuclear energy. If you're unsuccessful on May 3, will you bend your nuclear energy policy?
DUTTON: Phil, we are committed to nuclear, not because it's politically popular. I haven't committed to nuclear energy for votes. I committed to it because it's in the best interest of our country. And when you look at the top 20 economies in the world, Australia is the only one that hasn't embraced or hasn't signed up to or already has nuclear power. In France, 70 per cent of power. We're paying three times the cost of electricity in this country compared to other parts of the world that have nuclear underpinning renewables. We can't pretend that, as the Prime Minister and Chris Bowen keep talking about, that wind is free and solar is free. If that were the case, why have your power bills gone up by $1,300 instead of down by $275. So, we are committed to it. As the Prime Minister pointed out, he signed up to the nuclear submarines knowing that it was a safe technology. It's zero emissions. So, it's the only way, as the Labor Prime Minister points out, that we can achieve net zero by 2050. It will bring down costs by 44 per cent. That's the independent analysis. And the almost $600 billion in the Prime Minister's renewables only policy is going to have to be paid for somehow and he hasn't declared how.
COOREY: Well, Prime Minister, could I ask you the other side of that question? If you were unsuccessful on May 3, should Labor accept the verdict of the people and reconsider its opposition to the moratorium on nuclear power?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, no one will invest in it, Phil. That's the fact.
DUTTON: Well, it's illegal at the moment, that's why.
PRIME MINISTER: Because John Howard put in place the ban.
DUTTON: We'll lift the moratorium and let the market work it out.
PRIME MINISTER: David Crisafulli doesn't support lifting it, nor does the Victorian Opposition Leader, nor in New South Wales. This is a friendless policy because it doesn't stack up. That's why the business community signed up to our plan for 43 per cent reduction by 2030. Renewables, but backed by gas, backed by hydro and backed by batteries. And that is what the Australian Energy Market Operator, what all the private sector investors want to do. If nuclear stacked up, there'd be a queue of people saying we think this is a good idea, we're prepared to invest our own dollars. Instead, taxpayers are going to pay for it. And in the Opposition's own figures they assess a 40 per cent smaller economy. That means less jobs, less investment. No aluminium industry here, no advanced manufacturing here. It is, it is a recipe to take us backwards. What we need to do is to acknowledge that coal fired power stations, 24 out of 28 announced their closure when they were in Government –
LANGDON: Please wrap up Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER: Nothing for new investment.
DUTTON: I just want to come back on a couple of points there. Under our modelling, we don't require the energy in the system because when you build a solar plant, when you build offshore wind, you need to over build it. This is a really important point and again it's, you know, it's difficult to explain in a 10 second soundbite, but the fact is that the reason we're paying so much for our electricity now, the reason it's three times the cost of other places in the world, is exactly as the Prime Minister points out, at least in a moment of honesty. Their policy requires an overbuild of the system, ours doesn't. It's a more efficient way to generate electricity. The only reason people don't invest at the moment is it's against the law, which is a convenient truth that the Prime Minister just won't mention. So, let's have a mature debate. I wrote to the Prime Minister six months ago offering a debate anywhere, anytime. He's never taken up that offer –
LANGDON: Oh well, we're here debating tonight, aren’t we?
PRIME MINISTER: And I as Prime Minister, unlike other Prime Ministers in the past, have agreed to four debates. I'm happy to have debates and hopefully as well we'll have one more. And I'm happy to argue the case because what Peter hasn't been able to come up with is where the money comes from. The figures that he used before about increased expenditure include the indexation of pensions. That's what he speaks about increased government expenditure as being.
LANGDON: Okay, well you've both had a chance of rebuttal with that question –
PRIME MINISTER: He needs to come clean as to where the cuts are.
LANGDON: So we might leave it there. And I just got to say, time flies when you're having fun. We're almost done, so I've got a few rapid fire questions I want to throw at you both. 10 seconds, as we agreed. I'll get you both to answer. Will you do a deal with minority parties, Prime Minister?
PRIME MINISTER: No.
LANGDON: Mr Dutton?
DUTTON: Not with the Greens, but with independents. And that's not a truthful answer from the Prime Minister there –
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, it is.
DUTTON: It's not. The Labor Party will fall over themselves to do a deal with the Greens. That's the reason –
PRIME MINISTER: It's just untruth –
DUTTON: You preference them, they preference you.
PRIME MINISTER: Untruth put forward by Peter, who's part of a Coalition. The only party that's trying to form government in our own right is the Australian Labor Party.
LANGDON: Okay. So, if it's a hung Parliament, it means we go back to the polls. And as long as there's not another election campaign.
DUTTON. So, Prime Minister, you won't form a government with the Greens? You won’t enter into any arrangements with the Greens?
PRIME MINISTER: No, I won't.
LANGDON: Okay. Okay. Four year terms –
PRIME MINISTER: Very simple. As I've said consistently, as I said before the last election.
LANGDON: Four year terms. Yes or no, Mr Dutton?
DUTTON: I support four year terms.
LANGDON: Prime Minister?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, but they’ll never support a referendum.
LANGDON: Ok. What will be the first item on your to do list if you are re-elected Prime Minister?
PRIME MINISTER: I've said we'll introduce legislation to cut student debt by 20 per cent.
LANGDON: And you, Mr Dutton?
DUTTON: We'll introduce our 25 cent a litre cut to the fuel tax. We'll introduce the $1,200 tax rebate. We'll provide support to first home buyers –
PRIME MINISTER: Well, you've got to do it quickly because it disappears in a year, so you will have to get it done quick.
DUTTON: It'll take a while to clean up your mess if that's the point. And then we'll reform the energy system because their renewables only energy –
PRIME MINISTER: Our changes are permanent.
LANGDON: It was a ten second answer.
DUTTON: It’s killing the economy.
LANGDON: Okay, thank you kindly. Okay, look, there's been so much mudslinging this campaign. We know it's what they're about. Prime Minister, you've called Mr Dutton mean-spirited and cold-hearted. What are three things you admire about him?
PRIME MINISTER: Three? Look –
DUTTON: We only ever prepare for one. This is a problem.
PRIME MINISTER: Let me say this. He bats way above his average with Kirilly. He has a terrific family. I've had the privilege, and he clearly cares about them. And that's a terrific thing. Longevity in politics. He's been, we've been in Parliament for basically the same amount of time almost. Both been there for more than 20 years. That's an achievement. And Peter, in that time as well, has had a tough seat that he's contested consistently over a long period of time.
LANGDON: There you go. It was a glowing endorsement, wasn't it, Mr Dutton? Now, you've called Mr Albanese the weakest Prime Minister we've had since Federation. Can you say something nice and to make it fair, three things.
DUTTON: Well, I'll start with family as well. And I admire the Prime Minister's fathership. Nathan's a great young bloke and similarly with Jodie, I've come to know Jodie and meet her at different events and have a great deal of respect for them both and I wish them well.
PRIME MINISTER: We're both punching above our weight, we can agree on that.
DUTTON: That is well and truly the case. I again acknowledge the Prime Minister's support of AUKUS from Opposition. And it wasn't an easy outcome as he pointed out, he was satisfied that nuclear energy was safe, but he got that through Caucus, which was a difficult thing. And AUKUS, when we negotiated it, it was about underpinning our security for the next century. And that's three, isn't it?
LANGDON: Yeah. You know what? The longest answers you've given tonight are saying lovely things about each other. Glowing. So, there you go. We like it. And look, we are pretty much out of time. I want to thank you both for a robust debate. We're going to hear your final pitch to the nation. Mr Dutton, since you gave the opening statement, you will go first again.
DUTTON: Thanks, Ally. Well, thank you to the Prime Minister for being here tonight and thank you to the panel and thank you at home as well.
I think this is a sliding doors moment for our country. We want to cut migration so that we can help restore the dream of home ownership. We don't want Australia's big Australia policy, which is putting pressure on infrastructure and every part of our lives. We want to cut the fuel tax by 25 cents a litre. We want to give you $1,200 back through the tax rebate. We want to make sure that we can fix the economy so that we can bring inflation down, bring interest rates down and grow the economy. We want to help people with cost of living pressures and we want to make sure that we can keep people safe in their homes, in their communities, and also make sure that our country can be safe in a very uncertain time. We need to also make sure that at this election we elect a Prime Minister who has strength of character and the ability to stand up for our country in a very uncertain time. And I believe with my experience, I have the ability to say to the Australian people that I can lead our country through an uncertain time, rebuild the economy and help get the cost of living pressures down so that families can afford to live again.
LANGDON: Okay. And over to you, Prime Minister, for your final statement.
PRIME MINISTER: We are in uncertain times and this is not the time to cut, which is what the Coalition will do, have to do, in order to pay for their nuclear plans, in order to make it clear where they want the country to go. The last time the Coalition came to office, they said there'd be no cuts to education and health. And of course, we know that they ripped in. This is a time for building, for strengthening Medicare, for helping to make things here in Australia, for helping to build up our schools from early childhood learning through to our schools program, which will give proper and fair funding for every student, through to free TAFE. This is a time as well where we need to make sure we have serious relationships with the world, from someone who's engaged and built those relationships, has a record of building relationships, whether it be with the United States, the UK, whether it be in our region, in ASEAN, or with our Pacific neighbours. This is a time to build Australia's future, not to cut.
LANGDON: Okay, thank you so much for that, Prime Minister. And that brings to an end our debate. No sign of a Medicare card, no footies, no dead fish, no stuff.
PRIME MINISTER: I had the footies here on Sunday.
LANGDON: That is true. Look, thank you so much, Prime Minister Anthony Albanese and Opposition Leader Peter Dutton. We appreciate your time tonight. Would you like a moment to shake hands?
DUTTON: Yes, of course.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks.
LANGDON: Thank you both.
ENDS
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