Thursday 3 April 2025
updated 14 April
ABC to host first free-to-air federal election leaders' debate
The ABC will host the first free-to-air leaders' debate of the 2025 federal election campaign with Prime Minister Anthony Albanese and Opposition Leader Peter Dutton going head-to-head live in prime time.
The debate will be held at ABC Parramatta at 8.00pm AEST on Wednesday 16 April and moderated by National Political Lead and Insiders host David Speers.
The debate will be broadcast live on ABC TV, simulcast on ABC NEWS Channel, live-streamed on ABC iview and then available on demand. It will also be available across ABC Local Radio, ABC NewsRadio and on the ABC listen app.
The ABC will decide the topics and questions and won’t be sharing these in advance. Each leader will make opening and closing statements and will have equal time to respond to questions.
“This will be a gimmick-free debate, focused on the major challenges facing Australia at a critical time, and where the two leaders stand,” said Speers.
“The aim is to give voters an opportunity to hear the Prime Minister and Opposition Leader discuss their competing visions for the country and genuinely debate each other.
“My commitment is to give both leaders fair treatment and an opportunity to make their case.”
Speers, one of Australia’s most experienced political journalists, first moderated a leaders' debate in 2007, between John Howard and Kevin Rudd, and since then has guided many election debates and forums.
ABC Director, News Justin Stevens said the ABC debate would give every Australian the opportunity to hear from both leaders.
“The ABC’s election coverage is built on putting the public at the centre of our thinking and delivering the best coverage for them,” he said.
“The ABC serves metro, rural and remote areas with Australia’s largest audience footprint for radio and terrestrial coverage and the leading digital news service.
“It’s terrific that the leaders will be appearing on the national public broadcaster and talking directly to as many Australians as possible.”
This post was updated on 14 April to reflect that Radio National will no longer be broadcasting the debate.
Media contact: Sally Jackson | ABC Communications
jackson.sally@abc.net.au
The Questions
ABC News Leaders Debate
ABC Parramatta
Parramatta, NSW
Wednesday, 16 April 2025
DAVID SPEERS, HOST: Good evening from the ABC's new Parramatta Studios in Sydney's west. It's terrific to have your company. I'm your moderator, David Speers and you've just heard from some of the Australians whose voices have helped inform me as I've prepared for tonight's debate. My goal is to help you understand the plan these two leaders have for Australia's future. Because we meet tonight at a time of great global uncertainty. Who has the vision to help chart a course through these tumultuous times? Well, we're about to find out, so let's get started. I want to welcome to the studio Prime Minister Anthony Albanese and Opposition Leader Peter Dutton. Gentlemen, good evening. Thank you both very much for joining us tonight. Let's just start with some rules of engagement. You'll both have 60 seconds for your opening statements and at the end, 60 seconds for your closing statements. Beyond that, I don't really want to be running a stopwatch on every word that's spoken tonight. We do want to have a genuine free flowing debate. My goal is to try and make sure you both have equal time. We also want this to be a productive conversation that does help Australians better understand your competing visions, not just an opportunity to attack one another. Mr Dutton, you won the coin toss and will speak first. Over to you.
PETER DUTTON, OPPOSITION LEADER Well, David, thank you very much. Firstly, thank you to the ABC for hosting tonight. Thank you, Anthony, for being here and thank you to every Australian who's taking an interest in what I think is an incredibly important election. As we approach the 3rd of May, many Australians will be asking themselves, are you better off today than you were three years ago? And as I've moved around the country and spoken to literally thousands of Australians, young families, pensioners, people in small businesses, it's been obvious to me that people don't feel better off. People have faced an existential cost of living crisis. People have seen food prices go up by 30 per cent, their mortgages have gone up on 12 occasions. And our plan is to get our country back on track, to make sure that we can help young Australians realise the dream of home ownership again. To make sure that we can help manage the economy so that we can get inflation down. And if we do that, that will lower interest rates. We want to help people with the cost of living crisis. We want to make sure that we can give $1,200 back to Australians, money that they've worked hard for, and reduce their petrol price by 25 cents a litre.
SPEERS: Mr Albanese, your opening statement.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Well, thanks very much, David, and thanks to the ABC. And thanks, Peter, for agreeing to a second debate. I'm really optimistic about Australia's future, if we seize the opportunities that are right in front of us. Because of the hard work that Australians have done over the last three years, we're turning the corner. We have inflation that's down, we have real wages that are up. We have unemployment that's very low at just 4.1 per cent. And interest rates have started to fall. They started to rise before the last election. But we know that there's much more work to do and that's why we have a plan. A plan to cut taxes, not raise them. A plan to make sure that we make things here in Australia through our Future Made in Australia plan. Strengthening Medicare through more Urgent Care Clinics. Lifting the bulk billing rates and having cheaper medicines. Making sure we cut 20 per cent off everyone's HECS debts and give free TAFE to provide opportunities. And a five per cent deposit is what you'll need for first home buyers. We know we live in difficult times, but I am very confident that with the right leadership, we can see it through. I want to trust the Australian people, I want to back our values and I want to build Australia's future.
SPEERS: Thank you both for those opening statements. Now, housing is where I'd like to begin. It's one of the biggest issues that voters have been raising. And look, you both have put forward ideas in the past few days that will see more homes built, boost supply, but you've also put forward ideas that a lot of experts and economists are warning will only push up prices even more. So, my question to you both is, can you honestly say that your plans will make housing any more affordable in five or ten years, or will they simply keep pushing prices higher? Mr Albanese?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, we can. Because we have a plan not just for demand, but for supply as well. A plan through the Building Australia Future Fund to build more public housing. A plan, as well, for private rentals as well to get increased supply there through our Build to Rent scheme. A plan as well to get first home owners to give them a fair crack, particularly young people. Now, a five per cent deposit rather than 20, will mean that instead of paying off someone else's mortgage, they can pay off their own mortgage. And that is important going forward –
SPEERS: But that will boost demand, won't it? Can't you just do the supply things? Why do you need to push up demand?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we need to do both. We need to give people a fair crack, particularly young people. But we have a comprehensive $43 billion Homes for Australia plan, making sure, whether it's about increased social housing, increased private rentals or increased home ownership as well, through our Help to Buy scheme, that will all assist. The key, of course, is supply. And that's why only Labor is offering a plan at this election to increase supply of housing.
SPEERS: Mr Dutton, you have plans to let first home buyers take up to $50,000 out of their superannuation to buy a home. That will push up house prices, won't it?
DUTTON: Well, David, firstly, I think it's important to understand why do we find ourselves in this position as a country? Over the last two years, the Government has brought in a million people, all of whom want homes and all of whom are competing against young Australians for that rental property or to purchase a home. That's a million people, which is 70 per cent higher than any two-year period in our country's history. So, the demand that the Prime Minister has generated has really created a housing crisis. At the same time, you've had the CFMEU and others who have choked supply, so stopped houses from being built. And it's been this perfect storm, which every Australian understands we've got.
SPEERS: Can you come back to the question about your plans that will boost demand even more?
DUTTON: We have five elements to our plan. The first element is a $5 billion fund where we work with councils and we identify where they've got land releases that are being stalled at the moment simply because they just can't afford the sewerage or the water or the road upgrade. So, that will bring on 500,000 new home lots. That is, on the supply side, a very significant benefit. The second part is that we reduce migration by 25 per cent so that we can allow the housing stock to be built up again. And by doing that, as well as stopping foreigners for two years from purchasing Australian homes, we give Australians, young Australians a go. The next part of our plan, which I think is incredibly important, is to make sure that we can say to young Australians who are locked out of the housing market under the Government at the moment, that for the first $650,000 of your mortgage, that will be interest that you could claim against your income. So, for an average couple, that will be about $11,000 or $12,000 a year, over five years.
SPEERS: It'll be a lot more for high income earners, won't it, than low income earners? This is regressive. It helps wealthier investors.
DUTTON: It provides for an average taxpayer about $11,000 or $12,000 a year, which is $1,000 a month, which for, it serves two purposes.
SPEERS: More if you're on high incomes.
DUTTON: Well, it serves two purposes. One is when you go to the bank, you've got a higher level of disposable income, so you're more likely to get the loan. Secondly, it helps you service the loan. David, in our country at the moment, there are young Australians who are putting off having kids, and there are parents and grandparents who are staying in the workforce longer because even though they've worked hard and saved for their own retirement, they can't afford to retire because they're having to chip in for their kids or grandkids to help pay the mortgage.
SPEERS: Look, neither of you seem willing to touch the negative gearing or capital gains tax breaks at this election. You've both been property investors over the years. Can you understand younger Australians, locked out of the market, feeling that it is people like you who are to blame for the fact the system's rigged against them? Mr Albanese.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, could I make this point, David? Peter's suggestion that this has been a problem that's developed in the last two years is a nonsense. And everyone watching this program knows that this has been developing for a long period of time. We have not had enough homes being built and indeed, the former government didn't bother to have a Housing Minister for half the time they were in office. What we've done since we came to office is look towards the big issue, which is supply.
SPEERS: But can I ask you to come to the question, which is about the tax breaks for investors, negative gearing and the capital gains tax discount. Why aren't you willing to touch those?
PRIME MINISTER: Because the experts say that what that potentially would do is diminish supply, not increase it. And that's why the key to fixing the housing issues is supply. That's why Peter speaks about his infrastructure plan. We've already announced and are rolling out two rounds of our housing infrastructure fund, doing exactly that, making sure that sewerage and energy and all of that is fixed up. And we as well are working with states and territories to increase density, where it's appropriate, to make sure more homes can be built.
SPEERS: But coming back to the tax treatment of housing investment, Mr Dutton, do you have any problem with investors using tax breaks to buy multiple properties? Four, five, six properties? Is there anything wrong with that?
DUTTON: Let me come to that. Anthony your Government has modelled negative gearing changes and CGT changes –
PRIME MINISTER: Well that’s not right –
DUTTON: The Treasurer has done that –
PRIME MINISTER: That's not right –
DUTTON: Well, it is –
PRIME MINISTER: The public service –
DUTTON: It is actually right.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, under our public service, we actually value the public service and we value them coming up with ideas and doing assessments. That's what's happened.
DUTTON: I can't believe, David, to be honest –
PRIME MINISTER: I have been very clear. I have been very clear about what our position is and why that is the case.
SPEERS: Was it modelled?
PRIME MINISTER: It certainly wasn't commissioned by us to do so.
DUTTON: It was modelled by the Government, that's publicly available. This Prime Minister has a problem with the truth and it's not just in relation to this debate. There are many aspects that you could pick up during the course of this campaign.
SPEERS: We might come to some of those –
DUTTON: Where the Prime Minister has just misled the Australian people –
SPEERS: Can I ask you to come back to the question, Mr Dutton –
DUTTON: David –
SPEERS: Investors, multiple properties, all these tax breaks. No problem with that?
DUTTON: I have stated very clearly that we want a sustainable housing market which includes rental stock. Now, if you want to cut out negative gearing, as the Labor Party and the Greens would love to do, you will stop investment taking place for properties which ultimately are rented by young Australians. Now, all of us started out renting somewhere and the dream was to buy a home. And for young Australians today, they've lost that dream.
SPEERS: But no need for any limits on this?
DUTTON: If we stop negative gearing, we will drive up the cost of rents. Rents are already up by 18 per cent under this Government. So, I want to make sure that we've got an investment class, which is an asset class, which is able to be invested in. The Greens, who likely could form a minority government with the Prime Minister if he's successful at this election, they have as a stated policy that they want to abolish negative gearing –
SPEERS: Let's leave the Greens to one side.
DUTTON: That would be a requirement for discussions with Mr Albanese.
SPEERS: You talked about renters. Now rent in capital cities has gone up a lot more than incomes over the last few years since COVID, five times more than incomes have gone up. Many renters have been contacting us, raising concerns about what's in this election for them. They can't afford a crippling mortgage in Sydney or Melbourne. Are either of you willing to give renters more rights? One of their concerns is the instability they face. They can only get a 12 month tenancy. In other countries you can get a lot more than that. Mr Dutton, would you be willing to put some pressure on the states to give renters more certainty? Longer term rentals?
DUTTON: Well, David, as you point out, it's an issue for the states. So, there's different regimes that operate –
SPEERS: There's a leadership role here though.
DUTTON: The states, but in terms of trying to find that balance and protect the rights of renters and the rights of landlords. Yes. I mean, you want a sensible position adopted. You want –
SPEERS. So, you'd support longer rentals?
DUTTON: I'm happy to support sensible reforms, but as you point out, it's a matter for the states. The focus, I think, in this election is on who is best able to fix the housing crisis that the Government's created. Our policy is to provide support to young people. Yes, to allow them access to super, put that money back into super when they sell the house, but it gets them into the property market to start with. If we do that, we can increase their overall net position. And as people age and they pay off their mortgage and they go into retirement, they're in a much stronger position if they're going into retirement and their mortgage is paid down or paid off completely and they've lost hope of that under this Government.
SPEERS: Same question to you, Mr Albanese. Would you put pressure on the states to give renters more certainty?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we've delivered it. We've delivered a renters’ rights program in agreement with states and territories that have improved the rights of people who are renting. In addition to that, we've increased maximum rental assistance by 45 per cent in this term. And in addition to that, in addition to that, Peter has just raised the issue of super. If you give everyone super access to up to $50,000 and everyone at the auction will just have $50,000 more, it will just bid up prices as it did in New Zealand. It, again, does nothing for supply. What we have is a reservation of 100,000 homes just for first home buyers that will give them an opportunity, because they won't be competing with investors. And we see that working effectively in South Australia right now, and we went to a place on Monday, 110 townhouses being built. 40 of them will be just for first homeowners.
SPEERS: I want to move on because you've talked about your plans in housing. This is just part of the spending plans that you're taking to the people at this election, but we do have all this spending despite the fact that we're in deficit. I want to show you this. This is spending versus revenue over the last 15 years, so it covers both sides of politics. And spending has continued to remain above revenue, which is the bottom line there in orange, for most of that last 15 years. We had a couple of years of surplus, but the big spike there is the big spending spike during COVID and then after that you can see that we've gone back to a situation where spending is going to remain higher than revenue for years to come over the forward estimates. It's younger Australians who ultimately have to pay for the debt here Mr Albanese. What do you say to them? Where's the money going to come from?
PRIME MINISTER: I say to them that we are the only government in the last 20 years that have produced consecutive budget surpluses and we've halved the deficit this year, as a direct result of the responsible economic management that we have. Then debt is $177 billion less. We have improved the bottom line by $207 billion since we came to office. That means paying off $60 billion less in interest payments as a direct result of the difficult decisions that we've made. Getting inflation down to 2.4 per cent – it had a six in front of it when we're elected. So, we have been very careful finding savings, $95 billion of them.
SPEERS: And yet your spending continues to be higher than your revenues, right? For the foreseeable future, for the next four, even 10 years. And at this election, you are offering spending that goes to high income earners. Things like the energy rebate, the battery rebate, the tax cut, the wiping HECS debt, the first home buyer incentive, none of it's means tested. Why not?
PRIME MINISTER: Measures like the HECS debt, take for example, that's opposed by the Coalition. The HECS debt is about intergenerational equity. We spoke before about young people. I think young people deserve a fair crack and issues like taking 20 per cent off everyone's HECS debt, free TAFE, 600,000 –
SPEERS: But I'm asking why are you not means testing these things. When we're in deficit, why do high income earners get this stuff?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, David, if you get sick or I get sick, we can get access to Medicare and access to a public hospital. Every child, Peter's or mine will get access to a public education, a public school as well –
SPEERS: But do they need all the rebates and so on that you are offering at this election, the high-income earners?
PRIME MINISTER: Energy rebates, if you had two choices because of the way that it's being delivered through the energy companies. You either give it to everyone or you just give it to concession card holders. We understand that a whole lot of working people need that assistance in cost-of-living and that's why this is our third increase in energy rebates that we've put forward and that's why we've done it.
SPEERS: Mr Dutton, you've made a lot of big spending promises in this campaign too, and you're talking up even more to come on defence. Are your cuts to the public service going to be enough to cover it all?
DUTTON: Well, David, a couple of things. I mean, what the Prime Minister hasn't mentioned there is that most of the outcomes that he's talking about are because of variations in commodity prices, not because of decisions the Government's made or the growth that they've put into the economy. That's just not the reality and I think the Prime Minister constantly telling people that they're much better off now just defies the reality in their own lives. There are 30,000 small businesses which have gone bankrupt over the course of the last three years, a record number in our country's history over the last 12 months. Households have been in a recession for seven consecutive quarters, almost two years.
SPEERS: Okay, let's come back to the question if we can. Are your cuts to the public service going to cover all of your spending in this election?
DUTTON: The short answer is no. We're not going to achieve all of the savings that we need to achieve through our changes to the public service. But what we have seen –
SPEERS: You wanted to save, was it $7 billion a year, through savings in the public service?
DUTTON: I'll just finish this point, David. I mean, what we've done in relation to our 25 cent a litre cut for fuel excise that happens from day one, it helps pensioners, it helps delivery truck drivers, it helps families. It's an economy-wide benefit and it brings down the cost of doing business and the costs across the community, which are ballooning under this government. So that is a one-off hit to the budget of about $6 billion. It's not a recurrent or a structural spend in the budget. This is the important point. It's exactly what we did over the course of COVID where JobSeeker and JobKeeper were changed to provide a response to COVID at the time. We didn't legislate and put that into every budget going forward.
SPEERS: These are one-offs that just happen to coincide with an election. My question though –
DUTTON: They happen to coincide with the fact that families are doing it tough and there are many families at the moment, right across the country that we've spoken to that can't afford to pay their bills.
SPEERS: On your public service cuts, $7 billion a year. You haven't yet said where those cuts will occur. Can you tell us tonight, at least one area of the public service you would cut?
DUTTON: Well, David, there's been a three-fold increase in the expansion of the public service compared to the Rudd-Gillard years.
SPEERS: So, where do you cut?
DUTTON: We have the highest per capita rate of public servants in the world and our argument is that if you've got families at the moment who are working their guts out working second, third jobs paying tax, I want to make sure that that taxpayer dollar is being spent efficiently. And my argument is that where you balloon the public service in Canberra, that is not an efficient use of taxpayers’ money at the money.
SPEERS: You do seem to be having trouble saying where you would cut. You've said a lot of areas where you won't. What about foreign aid? Would you cut foreign aid?
DUTTON: We've said in relation to the public service that we will protect frontline positions, which I think is important. Incredibly important. And we've announced more funding for GPs into general practice and there are many other areas you can –
SPEERS: This is the question, where do you cut?
DUTTON: We find inefficiency, David, and it's not something you can do from Opposition to redesign the public service and the way in which that structure works.
SPEERS: Foreign aid, is foreign aid going to be cut?
DUTTON: Well, we haven't made any announcements in relation to foreign aid and there's a lot of good that we're doing in foreign aid and the principle that we've had, like any good Liberal government like John Howard when he came in in '96 after Keating had done so much damage, we will make sure that we're spending taxpayers money efficiently and whatever we can give back, we will. Which is why we've said that to deal with the crisis that Anthony's created in everybody's budget at the moment we'll give back $1,200 of people's tax that they've paid by way of –
SPEERS: I was asking about the cuts, not the spending. We've heard about the spending.
PRIME MINISTER: David, can I – that's before they get to the $600 billion they need for their nuclear reactors.
DUTTON: I mean, there you go again, Anthony. Just rolls off your lips like it's true.
PRIME MINISTER: They're agreements that they have. Well, he won't say where the cuts will be. It's ‘vote for me and just trust us, we'll tell you after the election.’ Well, we know what happened last time, the cuts came to health, they came to education. $50 billion out of hospitals, $30 billion out of schools. That's why a decade later, we're still trying to fix and repair the damage that was done by that 2014 budget.
SPEERS: Let me ask you both a question here. A lot of people say, where's the serious reform? You know, Keating floating the dollar, Howard's GST. Mr Albanese, what's the one big change you'd like to be remembered for?
PRIME MINISTER: Affordable childcare is one of the things that we're doing. We've already put measures in place, including in this term, we'll get rid of the activity test, a three-day guarantee for childcare, boosting infrastructure for childcare. We want the universal provision of affordable childcare so that it is as natural to have your child have access to childcare as it is to have access to the public health.
SPEERS: Okay, Mr Dutton, what's your one big reform?
DUTTON: Well, energy is the economy, David. Everything we use, everything around us is either running or has been created because of the use of energy. Farming, fertiliser, cold storage. Everything that we rely on in our society, in a modern society like ours relies on energy. And what we've said is that we want to create an east coast gas reserve. So, that will bring gas that we're exporting at the moment, beyond the foundation contracts, back into the domestic market. If we do that, that increases supply. It addresses Labor's disastrous energy policy and it will help bring the cost pressures down across society. It, by the independent analysis, reduces the cost of wholesale gas by 23 per cent. That is a structural change in the economy. We go beyond that, of course, as you know, to deal with what firms up the renewables as we go forward, which is a vision that Bob Hawke had for our country, that John Howard shared, and that I certainly strongly believe in. And that is a zero emissions nuclear technology embraced by the Labour Party in the United Kingdom. It's embraced by the French, by many other countries around the world. In fact, Australia is the only one of the top 20 economies that hasn't signed up to or isn't already using nuclear.
SPEERS: Just to check the reality on that, there are some other G20 economies that don't have nuclear –
DUTTON: Well, Indonesia is one I think that the ABC cited before, and you've seen the comments from the Indonesian President that they are fully on board with nuclear. If you have a look at what's happening in the UK, Keir Starmer says, the Labour Prime Minister there says that they can't achieve their net zero by 2050 targets without the use of nuclear. I just want to come to this point, David, because it's a substantial one in relation to this $600 billion figure that the Prime Minister keeps rattling out, which is completely and utterly untrue.
SPEERS: You have a different figure. I get it. I think, Mr Albanese –
DUTTON: Well, it's only out by $320 billion –
SPEERS: The top 20 economies are all using nuclear.
PRIME MINISTER: I'm a friend of Keir Starmer and what Keir Starmer is having to deal with is the blowout in the cost of the Hinkley nuclear plant. It's now up to $90 billion for one plant. It is coming in 14 years late and it's being built in a country that does have a nuclear industry. It's being built by the world's largest nuclear energy company from France. That shows exactly the problem. And Keir Starmer wishes, as do so many people, that they had the access, with the solar resources, with the wind resources, with the space that we have here in Australia to have renewables backed by gas, backed by hydro and backed by batteries. That's the future.
SPEERS. So, nuclear, clearly, is one of the big differences on the table at this election. A lot of people want more detail about your plans, Mr Dutton. One of the concerns is water. Nuclear power needs a lot more water than coal-fired power. Where will the water come from?
DUTTON: Well, David, there are already water allocations to each of the seven sites that we've located. So, coal-fired generation uses a lot of water now –
SPEERS: You need more for nuclear –
DUTTON: No, we've looked at the water allocation for each of those sites –
SPEERS: You don't think you need any more?
DUTTON: We're comfortable with the analysis that we've done. But just to put this into perspective. So, Frontier Economics is the most preeminent economist on energy in this country. Used by the Labor Party. And says, and this hasn't been questioned or hasn't been disputed by Chris Bowen or Anthony Albanese or Jim Chalmers. The independent analysis says that our model, our energy model, which includes nuclear out to 2050, costs $331 billion. It is $263 billion less. Well, just let me finish this point. $263 billion less than the Government's own model. So, that makes the Government's model roughly $600 billion. Where's that coming from? The Prime Minister has signed up to a nuclear industry because we have, 30 kilometres from here, Lucas Heights, which is a reactor and it deals with nuclear –
SPEERS: So I understand you have competing numbers –
DUTTON: And we also obviously have the AUKUS deal.
SPEERS: You have competing costs, but just to be clear, you're saying no additional water is required. All those experts who say you'd need more for nuclear, they’re wrong?
DUTTON: Well, David, a couple of points. I mean, we could spend all night on what I think is really important –
SPEERS: This is the detail that people are after, Mr Dutton.
DUTTON: Yes, but there are different, depending on the small modular reactor as well, and obviously the size of the reactor –
PRIME MINISTER: They don't operate anywhere –
DUTTON: As to the amount of water that's required –
SPEERS: But the large reactors you were talking about in Queensland, you've got one plan for Callide, one for Tarong. They'd be large nuclear reactors –
DUTTON: We have looked at each of the sites and we've done the analysis on the water allocations that are there now.
SPEERS: Sorry, are you saying they'd be small modular reactors there?
DUTTON: I'm saying that there is a mix, as we've said, which starts in 2035-37. Now, the Prime Minister, you know, whispers out the side of his mouth that nuclear is not safe. He signed up to nuclear power for our submariners. And the Prime Minister, again, it's another example of just complete dishonesty in a debate which I think is worth having between adults.
SPEERS: I'm just trying to get some clarity on your plans here, Mr Dutton. Just a moment. If local communities, be they local farmers or local communities, where you've earmarked these nuclear plants to go, if they say no, and if the State Government say no, which in Queensland, the LNP government isn't on board, what happens? Do you override them?
DUTTON: Well, David, the Commonwealth obviously has powers and we can exercise those powers if need be, but we can work with the state governments. In South Australia, the South Australian Premier has been very clear of his support for nuclear, as many figures within the union movement and in the Labor Party have as well.
SPEERS: So, you would override those concerns?
DUTTON: We'll work to find consensus –
SPEERS: You will use Commonwealth powers?
DUTTON: If we can't find consensus then we'll do what's in our country's best interests. The Prime Minister conveniently in his talk before –
SPEERS: We’ll come to the Prime Minister.
DUTTON: Well, he dropped out the word ‘green hydrogen’. Right. This used to be the underpinning, the base load requirement.
SPEERS: We'll get to the PM’s plans.
DUTTON: Which now, of course, is not a commercial reality. So, in terms of timing, I think the PM's plan has unravelled somewhat.
SPEERS: Let me ask you, Mr Albanese, about your plan. There are local concerns too, about some elements of the renewables roll out, particularly offshore wind in places like the Hunter in NSW. What do you say to those locals and those local community concerns, are you overriding them as well?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, that's why you need proper community consultation and environmental approvals. Some of the concern is not real – whales being unable to steer their way around in the vast Pacific Ocean around a wind tower is not right. They've been extended further out as a result of that community consultation process. But can I make this point, David, that Peter won't say the fact –
SPEERS: I’m just trying to stick to your plans, Mr Albanese.
PRIME MINISTER: Every single state and territory government, none of them will support it. Not just the LNP, the Liberal Party here in NSW, the Liberal Party in Victoria don't support it. But that's not what's important. The most important thing is the private sector won't back it.
SPEERS: Let me stick to your plans. Can I stick to your plans now, Mr Albanese? You and Chris Bowen keep saying that renewables are the cheapest form of power. When will we see our power bills come down?
PRIME MINISTER: They are. Well what we know is that renewables are the cheapest form of power not because of what we say but, but because of what the Australian Energy Market Operator says.
SPEERS: So, when do the bills come down?
PRIME MINISTER: And what the market is delivering. See, Peter has to have government, state, taxpayer funded –
SPEERS: Can we stick with your plan for the moment –
PRIME MINISTER: Taxpayer funded proposals. What we're dealing with here, during the former government, 24 out of 28 coal fired power stations announced their closure. We need to get supply and certainty in energy security. We can't wait to the 2040s for a nuclear plan –
SPEERS: Sorry, just sticking with your plan Mr Albanese, when will the bills come down?
PRIME MINISTER: Under our plan, we know that renewables are the cheapest form of power and that is why we are doing that. Rolling it out, including through gas. Peter raised gas. Gas is now $13. It was $30 when we came to –
SPEERS: When does it get cheaper?
PRIME MINISTER: 13 is cheaper than 30.
SPEERS: When do we see the bills come down?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, what we need to do is to roll out renewables, make sure there's energy security, make sure it's backed up by batteries, by hydro and by gas. That is what all of the private sector is backing and investing in, not using taxpayers' money to fund something that they never put forward the entire time they were in office. Meanwhile coal fired power stations, including the one in Callide at moment, which is one of his nuclear sites, has broken down and isn't in operation.
SPEERS: Some states are extending the life of these coal fired power stations.
PRIME MINISTER: But that is, that is what is causing the increase in prices, is because of the uncertainty created by –
SPEERS: Are you saying they shouldn't be doing it?
PRIME MINISTER: No, they need to ensure energy security. But what shouldn't have happened was 24 out of 28 coal fired power stations announced their closure and no support for energy security during that time and we can't afford to wait for the 2040s.
SPEERS: Okay, let me ask you both the question about climate change. We get a lot of questions about the concerns that people have over more intense weather events, be it storms, fires, floods, particularly in your home state Queensland, Mr Dutton. Do you accept that we are already seeing the impact of climate change?
DUTTON: Well, David, there's an impact. The question is what we can do about it as a population of 27 million people. So, we should be good corporate citizens, good international neighbours, et cetera. But at the moment, China is building two coal fired power stations a week. India obviously is burning a lot of fossil fuel and what the government's doing and Chris Bowen gave us –
SPEERS: Sorry, can we stick with your plans again here, Mr Dutton? I understand the propensity to get stuck into each other. You're agreeing we are seeing the impact of climate change.
DUTTON: I think you can see that there's an impact, David, but I don't, in my home state you made reference to floods and natural disasters, events. We were out in Thargomindah the other day. That has been a part of the history of our state, of this country and we need to –
SPEERS: Is it getting worse though? Is it getting worse?
DUTTON: Well, I'll leave others to –
SPEERS: What do you think? You're a Queenslander.
DUTTON: Well, I'll let scientists and others pass that judgement.
SPEERS: Really, you're not willing to say this is climate change happening right now?
DUTTON: Well, as the Prime Minister refused to do the other day to make comment in this regard as well. I don't know, David, because I'm not a scientist and I can't tell you whether the temperature has risen in Thargomindah as a result of climate change or that the water levels are up in Thargomindah's latest flood as a result of climate change. And I think the honest answer for most people is that they don't know. And there are scientists who can provide advice. What I need to do as the alternate Prime Minister in this country is to put forward our plan about how we're going to help families. We need to transition and we've spoken about that with our zero emissions technology. But in relation to power costs, which I think is a really important issue before we move on, the Prime Minister promised $275 reduction per year at the last election. It has never eventuated. He never mentions the figure. And at least Chris Bowen was able to give you a straighter answer than what you just heard before because power prices have gone up by $1,300 and they are making no commitments in this election other than if you vote Labor, your electricity and your gas prices will go up.
SPEERS: We've moved away from the impact of climate change a little there. But Mr Albanese, we do know that people in a lot of these areas where we're seeing more severe impacts, are really worried about the impact on their insurance premiums. One of our audience members, Ross, lives in Ballina. Three years ago, his premium was less than $3,000. Now it's more than $6,000. I mean, that's unaffordable for many. What's the role of government here to help people in that situation?
PRIME MINISTER: Can I talk about the science and be a Prime Minister who backs it up? The science is very clear. Doesn't mean that every single weather event is because of climate change. It does mean that the science told us that the events would be more extreme and they'd be more frequent. And that is what we are seeing playing out, whether it be increased bushfires, increased flooding, these extreme weather events that are having an impact. So, when we talk about the costs, this is one of the costs, the cost to our economy as well as the cost to our environment of not acting on climate change, of not being a part of the global solution, are severe.
SPEERS: Okay, I want to move on. Let's turn to the global outlook and an issue that's certainly flared in the last couple of days. Mr Dutton, yesterday you jumped on reports that Russia had asked to base some of its military aircraft in Indonesia. You suggested this would represent a catastrophic failure of the Albanese Government for not seeing this, not knowing that it was coming. You said the Indonesian President had publicly announced this Russian request when he had not. Indonesia says there won't be Russian planes based there. Do you admit you got that wrong?
DUTTON: Well, David, the reference I was making shouldn't have been to the President. It was in relation to sources from the Prabowo Government.
SPEERS: So, was that a mistake?
DUTTON: It was a mistake. And I'm happy to admit that what we got from the Indonesian authorities in the reports, and the Prime Minister commented on these reports yesterday as well, was that the sources inside the Prabowo Government confirmed that that was the case. Now, what we've seen in the last 12 hours or so is that the Russian envoy to Indonesia has confirmed that there have been discussions and obviously there is a concerning closeness in that relationship. And I think the main point here is that the Prime Minister knew nothing of it, nothing of the concerns, nothing of the prospect. The Prime Minister found out about it through a news report, similarly to when the Chinese naval ship circumnavigates our country. And he doesn't know about all of the detail until a Virgin pilot provides the detail.
SPEERS: Clearly, Mr Albanese, there are expanding defence cooperations going on between Russia and Indonesia. They held some exercises in November. And just yesterday, Russia's Deputy Prime Minister met the Indonesian President in Jakarta. Does this concern you?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, that's an extraordinary double down from the alternative Prime Minister of Australia who verballed the Indonesian President yesterday. Indonesia will be the fourth largest economy in the world. They are an important partner of Australia. We have an important defence relationship with Indonesia as well. President Prabowo I regard as a personal friend, and we have good relations there. And the idea that you just throw out these comments is just extraordinary. And the fact that we just saw a double down on it, as if there's nothing to see here, just shows that there's no understanding of the need for diplomacy. Diplomacy means engaging seriously in a calibrated, serious way, treating Indonesia with respect as we do other nations that we deal with.
SPEERS: Well, just quickly on that. You said, you pointed out Indonesia is an important partner. You said President Subianto's a personal friend. Why haven't you been to Indonesia since he became President?
PRIME MINISTER: Because I've been here domestically. But the President I have spoken with and the President was here just before his inauguration.
SPEERS: When did you last speak?
PRIME MINISTER: He's a regular visitor. We speak regularly and –
SPEERS: Have you spoken about this? About their cooperation with Russia?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I don't broadcast the private discussions, but we had discussions at the senior levels of government, government to government, confirmed that, Peter says why didn't we know something that didn't exist and what didn't exist in Indonesia has confirmed the idea of a base being used by the Russian air force in West Papua.
SPEERS: Do you accept that, Mr Dutton?
DUTTON: No, I don't. I don't accept that. And I think the Prime Minister is full of bluster here because he knows that he's got it wrong again in relation to national security. This is a Government that's ripped $80 billion out of defence and we've seen the relationship in relation to Indonesia and Russia grow closer. Now Indonesia is an incredibly important partner. I met with the president elect when he was out here and I had a very good relationship with him as Defence Minister when we were both in that portfolio. I had a lot to do with the previous, with the previous president in Indonesia as well. So, we have a stable, solid relationship. But that means that if there is to be some change in the security settings in our region, that if there is respect for the Albanese Government, of course there is not at the moment because they see this Prime Minister as weak. Then why wouldn't there be a response or why wouldn't there be even to the Foreign Minister, to the Defence Minister to say –
SPEERS: A quick reply on that one?
DUTTON: Well, I think it's an important point.
PRIME MINISTER: Peter's suggesting that there should be a response to something that isn't happening. And this is the second of the failures that we've seen of diplomacy and of mature responses to international issues just during this campaign. When President Trump made the announcement that every single country in the world would be hit with tariffs, the alternative Prime Minister suggested that we should put defence and our defence relationship with the United States on the bargaining table. And it took John Howard to intervene, to point out, how –
SPEERS: Okay, let’s talk about that –
PRIME MINISTER: Wise that would be.
SPEERS: We've made it 40 minutes in and finally Donald Trump's name gets mentioned. He's not in this room, but he of course has a big influence on the future of Australia and the world. He has hit Australia with the 10 per cent tariff. He started a trade war with China. He's treating friends and allies with disdain. Mr Dutton, to you first. Do you trust this President?
DUTTON: Well, David, I said in relation to President Trump that I thought the scenes that we saw coming out of the White House, the treatment of President Zelenskyy was a disgrace, that it was appalling. And I stand by those comments. And we need to have a very strong working relationship with the United States. Of course we do.
SPEERS: Do you trust him was the question?
DUTTON: Well, we trust the United States and I don't know the President, I've not met him. The Prime Minister obviously has been able to –
SPEERS: But you're not willing to say you trust Donald Trump?
DUTTON: I don't know, I don't know Donald Trump is my point. My point is that who I trust is the Australian people. And my job is to stand up for our country's interest, which is what I did when we negotiated the AUKUS deal with President Biden.
SPEERS: Okay. Mr Albanese, do you trust Donald Trump?
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, I have no reason not to. I've had a couple of discussions with him. In the last discussion, we agreed on a series of words that he would give consideration, great consideration was the words that he used. And he did that. In the end he made a decision as part of the US administration to put these tariffs on every country. We got the lowest amount, but we made it very clear that that was an act of self harm by the United States. The United States enjoys a trade surplus with Australia. All this will do is put up costs for American consumers.
SPEERS: Just while we're at it, do you trust China's President, Xi Jinping?
PRIME MINISTER: I have no reason not to either. In terms of the discussions that we have had as one on one discussions, have been, important. China is our major trading partner. One in four Australian jobs depends upon trade. It is in Australia's national interest to have a good economic relationship with China. We have different political systems and that means different values, and we have very different values with China. But what I've said is we'll cooperate where we can, we'll disagree where we must, but we'll engage in our national interest.
SPEERS: Mr Dutton, do you trust Xi Jinping?
DUTTON: Well, David, again, I don't know the President of China, but I believe very strongly in the relationship that we have because of the reasons the Prime Minister outlines. It's important for our economic stability and our sovereignty. In government we negotiated 11 free trade agreements. This Government's only been able to negotiate one. Of the 11, one was with China. I want to see the relationship grow and I want to see trust in the relationship. But we have to stand up for our sovereignty. We have to have a respectful relationship. I had a very good meeting with the Premier from China when he was out only a couple of months ago, and we can build the relationship.
SPEERS: And you trust him?
DUTTON: Well, again, I spoke to him across the table, so I haven't done business with him and shaken hands and seen whether somebody's honoured that deal, but I don't have any reason to distrust him.
SPEERS: Okay, look, coming back to –
PRIME MINISTER: Can I make the point that in the agreements that I've reached with Premier Li, they have all resulted in precisely what was agreed on both sides and now, as a result of that, $20 billion of trade with China has been restored.
SPEERS: Okay. A lot of people are wondering –
DUTTON: Because of the free trade agreement that we signed, to be clear.
PRIME MINISTER: Well it didn't operate for the entire time in which your last term, there were no discussions.
DUTTON: Well, again, Prime Minister, that’s just not true –
PRIME MINISTER: There was no contact, no phone calls, no meetings, no trade.
SPEERS: Well, there was a diplomatic freeze.
DUTTON: Well, in terms of the trade relationship, it was something that we established through the free trade agreement to –
SPEERS: But it did stop.
DUTTON: Well, there were difficulties in relation to 5G, David, so if you talk about that period. We took a decision as a government to exclude high risk vendors from 5G because we wanted to protect our telecommunications system. China was upset in relation to that. If the Prime Minister is suggesting, because it was a bipartisan position at the time, that that wasn't an appropriate step for us to take in our national interests, then he probably should say something.
SPEERS: Let's come back to Donald Trump. It's a while since you've had a conversation. We've had this tariff put on us of 10 per cent, plus the tariffs on steel and aluminium. You've suggested some sort of deal around critical minerals is on the table, the critical minerals reserve, strategic reserve. What is that, Mr Albanese? And what exactly are you offering Donald Trump?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we'll engage diplomatically, not through TV interview, but we have put forward a proposition to the United States. The United States have put forward publicly their complaints about Australia. We won't budge on the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme. We won't budge on biosecurity issues. We won't budge on the Media Bargaining Code. We will stand up for Australia's national interest because that is important. So, we'll continue to engage with the United States. We hope. We hope there is an agreement –
SPEERS: You've said this yourself about the critical minerals reserve being put on the table?
PRIME MINISTER: That's right.
SPEERS. So, what is it?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, a critical minerals reserve is just that, it's a reserve of the critical minerals and rare earths which Australia has an abundance of. We have the entire periodic table here –
SPEERS: And what’s the offer? You can have it? You can have it at a discount?
PRIME MINISTER: No. Well, we will negotiate. The United States is very keen to get access to critical minerals and rare earths. The trade dispute with China is particularly concerning to many in the US economy –
SPEERS. So, we reserve this for the United States?
PRIME MINISTER: No, we'll negotiate with the United States rather than with you, David, with respect.
SPEERS: I've got to try –
PRIME MINISTER: With respect.
SPEERS: Mr Dutton, you've said you'd get a deal very quickly with Donald Trump, that he dropped these tariffs. No other leader has managed this. How do you plan to pull this one off?
DUTTON: Well, we did, actually, in the 45th presidency, when President Trump was first elected. We were able to negotiate as a government then, an outcome where Australia was exempt –
SPEERS. So, how would you do it now?
DUTTON: Well, again, as we did –
SPEERS: It was Malcolm Turnbull at the time, it’s a lot harder now.
DUTTON: As we did last time, we were able to leverage relationships. Unfortunately, sadly for our country, Ambassador Rudd can't get into the West Wing and can't get a conversation –
SPEERS: What does leverage the relationship with President mean in practice?
DUTTON: It means, as we did last time, David, we look at people with whom we have a relationship, contacts, both within the West Wing, within the administration and those external to the administration. The trouble is that Anthony didn't think that Donald Trump was going to be elected and put nothing into the relationship. And unfortunately, Australia, our beef producers and others are now facing this ten per cent tariff.
SPEERS. So, you've got closer ties with the Trump administration?
DUTTON: I think we have the ability, as we demonstrated before, to talk to the administration and again, the mistruth that was spoken before by the Prime Minister about John Howard. The point I make, which is, I think accepted by most sensible people, is that as John Howard agrees with, we should be doing everything we can to enhance the relationship, to make our two countries stronger together. We've been with the United States for the last hundred years –
SPEERS: It sounds like your answer to this is because you've got closer relationships with the Trump team, you'd be able to get a deal.
DUTTON: We have, I think, a capacity demonstrated. We've already done that, David, and we demonstrated it in the first presidency that we were able to get an exemption when other countries weren't. So, all I'm saying is that –
SPEERS: Everyone else in the world can't get it – you would?
DUTTON: Well, as you know, when other countries were slapped with the tariff last time, we were exempt from it under a Coalition government.
SPEERS. So, are plenty of others. This time no one's got an exemption. Well, you reckon you could?
DUTTON: We've got an ambassador now who can't get a phone call to the President. We had an ambassador who used to play golf with him. We have people in Washington who have worked for Coalition governments, people who have worked for the Australian government. I think there is the ability to, to do a deal. The point I was making in relation to defence is that the Americans came to our aid in the battle of the Coral Sea. We've stood with America through every battle. It is an incredible relationship. I think in relation to critical minerals, you can look at offtake agreements, you can look at supply chain assurity for the United States so that their weapon systems and their guided weapons can be constructed and that, that is a critical part of what I think we can bring to the table. It's not a threat, it's about how you can enhance the relationship which seems to escape, have escaped this Government.
SPEERS: Just, just a quick one. You're both on a unity ticket when it comes to AUKUS, by the sounds of it. You want to stick with it despite the volatility created by Donald Trump. Is there a need for any contingency planning at Defence, though? If Elon Musk, for example, advises Trump that, you know, their shipbuilding industry can't cope with sharing submarines with Australia. Mr Albanese, do we need some contingency planning?
PRIME MINISTER: No, because this is in the interests of both Australia and the United States and the United Kingdom as well.
SPEERS. So, no contingency plans. All the chips are on AUKUS?
PRIME MINISTER: This, this is in the interests of the US. We have, I've been on a US sub there in WA that's been docked, a nuclear-powered submarine. There are Australian, there are Australian mariners working on that submarine. We have people in the United States, in the United Kingdom working on the AUKUS project. And it has bipartisan support. And what is extraordinary is a questioning of that does nothing to advance Australia's national interest. The important thing about international relations is that you shouldn't try to score domestic political points through it.
SPEERS: Look, I want to turn to, well –
DUTTON: Just on that point, David. So, when the Prime Minister, you know, sneakily says to an audience, when he thinks he's not being watched, that nuclear is unsafe, what does that say to our American partners when we've got our, our sailors, our submariners on submarines, on the Virginia class?
PRIME MINISTER: Are you suggesting, I signed, I signed, I went to San Diego, I signed with President Biden, the agreements on –
DUTTON: You were seeking cheap, political, wins here –
PRIME MINISTER: Nuclear powered submarines –
DUTTON: What the Government hasn't done, which has been noticed by the United States, they haven't invested into AUKUS and they haven't invested into Pillar Two of AUKUS. They've cannibalised Army, Navy and Air Force to pay for some of the –
SPEERS: Is that true?
DUTTON: There's no line item for –
PRIME MINISTER: It's complete nonsense. We have increased defence spending by $57 billion. We had a Defence Strategic Review that found, put simply, that we need more things that go bang. And that's why we have guided missiles that we're not just buying, we're actually going to make them here in Australia. And that manufacturing begins this year. We have had serious discussions with the United States going back to the Biden administration about critical minerals, about the role that it plays in industry. And we have engaged constructively and it doesn't assist to try to score a political point on what is something that we backed, we backed when the Morrison government came up with this proposal –
SPEERS: I want to move on –
PRIME MINISTER: We backed it, and we put meat on the bones.
SPEERS: Let me come back to your campaigning. Neither of you have visited an Indigenous community so far in this election campaign. Mr Dutton, what are Indigenous Australians to make of that?
DUTTON: Well, I can point to many trips that we've made to East Arnhem Land, to Alice Springs, to many communities across the country, David. The campaign isn't just made up of the last 15 days, or whatever it's been, it's made up of our term over the last three years, we went to Alice Springs and we spoke to a lot of people after the Voice in particular where people were devastated because the practical assistance promised by the Prime Minister hasn't been delivered and the country was divided or the attempt was made to divide our country on the Voice. So, I think the Prime Minister, I think the Government's done a lot of damage in relation to this area of public policy.
SPEERS: Let's look at where it's left us. I want to show you this. This is from the latest Closing the Gap data, the suicide rate amongst Indigenous Australians, the line on top and non-Indigenous Australians the line at the bottom, the gap is getting wider. And this is kids in out of home care. Once again, Indigenous kids, the top line, non-Indigenous kids, the bottom line, that gap is just not budging. It's getting a little worse as well. Mr Albanese, neither side of politics has been able to close these gaps. What's your plan now to fix this?
PRIME MINISTER: Neither side of politics has done well enough for First Nations people. That's just a fact and that's something that breaks my heart. But what we did post referendum was I went to Garma, I spoke about economic empowerment of Indigenous people. So, we have a series of programs, firstly taking what was essentially a work for the dole scheme, creating real jobs with real training and real outcomes. There's something like 40,000 Indigenous people, for example, have benefited from free TAFE. We're putting additional funds into health, particularly areas like dialysis. We have a ten year program on remote housing on education. We are pumping record funding into schools and that particularly will benefit areas like Cape York and the Northern Territory Indigenous schools as well.
SPEERS: And in terms of the Uluru Statement, which called for a Voice and Treaty and Truth telling, have you now moved on from that completely?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I went to Garma and I spoke about what our priorities were, and I spoke to you on the day that I gave that speech. We accept the decision of the Australian people in that referendum. You've now moved on from all of that. Well, we accept the decision that was made, David. We put forward a proposition that was asked for, we took up the gracious request of First Nations people made at Uluru in 2017.
SPEERS: And now, Mr Dutton, you during that Voice campaign, agreed that the current system isn't working for Indigenous Australians. If it's not working, how would you fix it?
DUTTON: Well, I think it's heartbreaking to see those figures, and I share the sentiment of the Prime Minister that despite both sides of government over a long period of time, we've both been in parliament over 20 years. There's been, in every discussion I've had in every expenditure review committee, in government, in opposition, a desire to invest as much money as is required to see those terrible outcomes improve. And it hasn't happened. And as Jacinta Price has pointed out, there is a lot of concern about the way in which programs are delivered within communities. And yet there are some amazing stories where you see 90 per cent attendance rates at school. You see a functioning society where people are going to work, where housing is available, where there are much better health outcomes, and there is a leadership aspect within some of those communities, which is exemplary and to be held up as a great opportunity in other communities. So I think we need to accept that whilst those figures are devastating, as we point out, there are some examples where we have seen dramatic improvements. How can we replicate and scale that up?
SPEERS: Look, a final one before we hear your closing statements. We do hear a lot from both of you in this campaign about how dire things would be for Australia if the other bloke wins. And maybe that's just the nature of campaigning. But you two have known each other a very long time. I've witnessed you both over the dispatch box in parliament. You're able to have a chat. You seem to get on. I just want to ask --
DUTTON: I don't want you to overstate it. It's a bit a kiss of death for both of us –
SPEERS: What I wanted to ask is would it really be a disaster for the country or is this just a bit of political hype if the other guy won? Mr Albanese?
PRIME MINISTER: I think there are very different values that we have. I can have a private discussion with Peter. I can call him round the office, and he does so regularly. And my office is open to every member of Parliament. But I don't take this personally, but I have a very different view of Australia. And I think that Peter has taken his party to a more conservative bent than it has ever been. And I want very much to be able to continue the work that our Government's been able to achieve.
SPEERS: Alright, Mr Dutton?
DUTTON: Well, David, on matters of national security or issues that are important for our country, the Prime Minister and I can have a conversation and have on a number of occasions to find a bipartisan position to advance that cause. But as Anthony points out, we've got different visions and different pathways and it really hurts me to see young Australians completely locked out of the housing market. It hurts me to see young families putting off having kids under this Government. And the reason the Prime Minister is running a scare campaign at the moment is that he doesn't want to talk about the reality of the last three years, which has been a failure for our country and the 29-30,000 small businesses. Behind every one of those stories is somebody who's lost their home, somebody who's lost their life savings or their job. And I have a vision where we can run our economy successfully so we can help people up and provide support to them and to keep our country safe.
SPEERS: Alright, time for your closing statements, Mr Dutton, to you first.
DUTTON: Well, David, as we go to the 3rd of May, people need to reflect on what's happened in our country, in your lives over the course of the last three years. And as I said in my opening remarks, can you answer the question, are you better off today than you were three years ago? And for the vast majority of Australians, the answer is no. We have a positive plan for our country. We have a desire to manage our economy, and if people vote for the Liberal and National parties at the next election, we'll successfully manage the economy to clean up Labor’s mess. We'll bring inflation down, which brings interest rates down. We'll restore the dream of home ownership. If Australians vote for their Liberal and National Party candidates at the next election, they'll get a 25 cent reduction in the price of petrol and diesel and $1,200 back. The tax that you've paid to help you cope with the pressures that you're under at the moment. I want to make sure that we can invest into defence and make sure that we can take crime seriously and reduce the problem of crime as it exists in our communities, in our suburbs across the country. My vision for our country is to make us a safer, more prosperous nation. And on the 3rd of May, I ask for the support of the Australian people.
SPEERS: Thank you, Mr Dutton. Mr Albanese, your closing statement.
PRIME MINISTER: This election is a real choice, A choice between Labor's plans to build Australia's future and the Coalition's plans for cuts when it comes to education. We have schools funding, childcare, making it more affordable, our universities accord. Or, a plan to get rid of free TAFE, to cut schools like happened last time, with $30 billion of cuts on Medicare – we'll strengthen it. People know that we believe in Medicare and they know that the last time they were in government and Peter was the Health Minister, they tried to introduce an abolition of bulk billing. That is a choice that they have. On climate change. We've heard tonight, no acceptance of the science of climate change. We accept it and we're acting on it with renewables backed by gas batteries, and making sure that we deliver on climate change and on renewable energy. When it comes to agenda issues that we didn't confront today, we've had a women's health program, the most significant that we have had. We have had paid parental leave. We have had a gender program that puts women at the centre of our economic and social agenda and the Coalition have not done anything on any of those issues. On our place in the world, we need to have a considered approach, a diplomatic approach, not the shoot from the hip approach that we've seen during this campaign.
SPEERS: Thank you both very much for joining us this evening. We do wish you well for the remainder of the campaign. Do stay with us. Thank you for joining us at home and after this debate, some post-match analysis with a special Insiders hosted by Patricia Karvelas. Good night.
ENDS
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